AKSA said:Hi Pooge,
I've found this gives very good sound. I can't argue too much about this, because such debates become interminable and people soon loose interest in the finer academic points, but a larger emitter resistor constitutes degeneration, reduces transconductance, and to my understanding always improves linearity by dwarfing the non-linear b/e junction with ohmic resistance.
There is some controversy on this point, with proponents invoking higher math to prove a point of some conjecture.....
gm doubling is a function of both transistors being on at the same time during crossover, and its effect is to rob very low level detail, the bane of Class AB. It can be reduced by better controlling the output of the voltage amplifier.
Cheers,
Hugh
Hi
So since it's improve overall linearity of the amp, it's also reducing crossover distortions and give better small details sound and soundstage sound quality ?
Hummm... I think I'm learning a little bit about how amp design work, but I still need few more hundred years of learning.
Gaetan
Negative..you will learn a lot reading all forum and beeing ready
Negative to be reading a hundred years.
You have only to hold the soldering iron and go doing tests about everything...trying CCS, mirrors, difficult schematics and simple circuits.
Never believe..go to try, compare and study.....not more than a year and you will be ready!
But will have to work hard...to burn parts, to try several schematics, to change circuits, to adapt CCS where there is not CCS.....well..tweak and listen....tweak and listen...soldering and burning fingers all time long..using all your free time...at least 3 hours a days.
Using A to B comparison...none will fool you!
Not more than a year and you will be a teacher.
regards,
Carlos
Negative to be reading a hundred years.
You have only to hold the soldering iron and go doing tests about everything...trying CCS, mirrors, difficult schematics and simple circuits.
Never believe..go to try, compare and study.....not more than a year and you will be ready!
But will have to work hard...to burn parts, to try several schematics, to change circuits, to adapt CCS where there is not CCS.....well..tweak and listen....tweak and listen...soldering and burning fingers all time long..using all your free time...at least 3 hours a days.
Using A to B comparison...none will fool you!
Not more than a year and you will be a teacher.
regards,
Carlos
Re: Negative..you will learn a lot reading all forum and beeing ready
Hi
Yes but we need some electronics bases, I don't have any electronics courses, it's just by reading magazines and a few books that I learned few very minimal knowledges in electronics, and I have good ears so I can feel the differences between good and ordinary amps.
One of my problem are that I'm a null in math, so even with books about power amp design I'm still stuck wen it come to maths to chose the right value for the correct voltage, amperage, gain...
My main book are in french, Amplificateurs Hi-Fi a transistors, by Brault, 1974, and I read many text from Jean Hiraga wen he wrote articles in La Revue du Son.
Is there a book or a web site like "Power amp design for dummy" ?
At least I'va learn that improving overall linearity of a amp, it's also reducing crossover distortions and give better small details sound and soundstage sound quality... but it also need to be linear in phase for minimal phase shift.
Is'nt it ?
Thank
Gaetan
destroyer X said:
Hi
Yes but we need some electronics bases, I don't have any electronics courses, it's just by reading magazines and a few books that I learned few very minimal knowledges in electronics, and I have good ears so I can feel the differences between good and ordinary amps.
One of my problem are that I'm a null in math, so even with books about power amp design I'm still stuck wen it come to maths to chose the right value for the correct voltage, amperage, gain...
My main book are in french, Amplificateurs Hi-Fi a transistors, by Brault, 1974, and I read many text from Jean Hiraga wen he wrote articles in La Revue du Son.
Is there a book or a web site like "Power amp design for dummy" ?
At least I'va learn that improving overall linearity of a amp, it's also reducing crossover distortions and give better small details sound and soundstage sound quality... but it also need to be linear in phase for minimal phase shift.
Is'nt it ?
Thank
Gaetan
gaetan,
I would start by reading this
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/dipa/dipa.htm
It talks about distortion in power amplifiers but covers the basic "standard" design of a power amplifier and the design options.
The caution I would add that while the things described in this paper are aimed at the design options for lowering distortion they don't all make an amplifier sound better. They are aimed at trying to get an amplifier to be a "Piece of wire with gain".
Individual amplifier designer philosophies fall somewhere along a line from this "piece of wire with gain" to "a musical instrument in its own right".
I have heard some truely awfull 0.001% distortion amplifiers and also some 2% distortion tube amplifiers which are quite satisfactory.
When I first built a standard AKSA55 (which follows the basic form of the amp in the Doug Self paper) I was quite excited to see which of the Doug Self "Blameless Amplifier" options were included and which were not. I commenced a few months of experiments trying all of the "Blameless" amplifier options in the AKSA55 only to decide at the end of that long tedious process that Hugh had got it right and I could have saved myself the effort - but at least I now KNOW that from personal experience.
Cheers,
Ian
I would start by reading this
http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/ampins/dipa/dipa.htm
It talks about distortion in power amplifiers but covers the basic "standard" design of a power amplifier and the design options.
The caution I would add that while the things described in this paper are aimed at the design options for lowering distortion they don't all make an amplifier sound better. They are aimed at trying to get an amplifier to be a "Piece of wire with gain".
Individual amplifier designer philosophies fall somewhere along a line from this "piece of wire with gain" to "a musical instrument in its own right".
I have heard some truely awfull 0.001% distortion amplifiers and also some 2% distortion tube amplifiers which are quite satisfactory.
When I first built a standard AKSA55 (which follows the basic form of the amp in the Doug Self paper) I was quite excited to see which of the Doug Self "Blameless Amplifier" options were included and which were not. I commenced a few months of experiments trying all of the "Blameless" amplifier options in the AKSA55 only to decide at the end of that long tedious process that Hugh had got it right and I could have saved myself the effort - but at least I now KNOW that from personal experience.
Cheers,
Ian
Re: Re: Negative..you will learn a lot reading all forum and beeing ready
Hi Gaetan,
(warning -- slightly off-topic)
I'm at the same place you are. Bad at math, but learning amplifier electronics--slowly.
Doug Self's books are maybe 2nd level. I have his Amplifier Design Handbook, and it's definitely "2nd year" amplifier electronics. Good stuff, but it assumes you already know the basics, and I have to read it 10 times to understand .1% of it.
Try G. Randy Slone's book called "Tab Electronics Guide to Understanding Electricity and Electronics". It's a basic introduction to electronics (practical Ohm's law), with a focus on very basic solid state amplifiers.
Slone isn't the best at explaining electronics, and like Doug Self, he likes to present his opinions as fact, but he tries honestly, and it's certainly the right subject at the right level, so it's better than most.
I also have Stan Gibilisco's book on electronics, and it's not too bad. He's much better at explaining electronics, but not as focused on amplifiers.
I haven't found the perfect book for us yet.
..Todd
gaetan8888 said:
Hi Gaetan,
(warning -- slightly off-topic)
I'm at the same place you are. Bad at math, but learning amplifier electronics--slowly.
Doug Self's books are maybe 2nd level. I have his Amplifier Design Handbook, and it's definitely "2nd year" amplifier electronics. Good stuff, but it assumes you already know the basics, and I have to read it 10 times to understand .1% of it.
Try G. Randy Slone's book called "Tab Electronics Guide to Understanding Electricity and Electronics". It's a basic introduction to electronics (practical Ohm's law), with a focus on very basic solid state amplifiers.
Slone isn't the best at explaining electronics, and like Doug Self, he likes to present his opinions as fact, but he tries honestly, and it's certainly the right subject at the right level, so it's better than most.
I also have Stan Gibilisco's book on electronics, and it's not too bad. He's much better at explaining electronics, but not as focused on amplifiers.
I haven't found the perfect book for us yet.
..Todd
I have learned this last year, how to design and amplifier...and it was not difficult
because i have readed the whole forum twice and going for the third time.
Informs here, there and everywhere go joining together.
I have made to young friends, in portuguese and i have made in English too, some audios teaching how to design an amplifier alike Aksa and Dx amplifier....the bootstrapp ones.... i will search for those audio files, MP3 files, and i am sure that knowing basic Mathematics you will be able to understand.
Ohms law, resistances in parallel and series, ressonance of circuits, knowledge how capacitors and inductors works, knowledge how the transistor works are needed, and we have, all of us, this basic understanding...than some tricks to make design easy.
If interested to listen those audios, go to my personal mail:
panzertoo@yahoo.com
Was "how to design an amplifier beeing a dummy"
I have to search for those files...i have not sure i have them.....but i will try to have them back if lost in contact with three forum friends that have copies of that.
The same way you can calculate, design a building using high level Mathematics, you can also use experience, observation, and to build, of course using many times more larger base and going installing bricks over bricks.... also using a piece of metal that have weigth and a rope...a line to see if your wall is really 90 degrees related the ground..... of course, less precise, of course your building will have enormous thick walls as you had in the past..but your building will be constructed, a lot of material will be wasted, but it will be stand still and people will leave there for hundred years without problems...at least...not too much problems.
The same way, not beeing a construction Engineer...not buiding using the last technologies you can do using "experience" and a good sense related things you can make your amplifier too.
I made mine...because of forum...and sound nice...was a happy experience.
I think the audio describes, with simple calculations, how to make the dx amplifier......knowing that, you can go to more complicated designs, as i am already doing this.
Of course an EE will find thing not precise...too much current here...waste of energy there....not a good idea here or there...bad decision taken about the input condenser..it could be better...well.... will not be perfect but will make you happy and will sound fine.
The top high end amplifiers are sounding, here at my home...a little bit better than my "frankstein"..as i have used forum ideas...things that came from many amplifiers...i have joined together and i made ohms law calculations and basic knowledge of circuitry...learned here also.
This forum is a nice teacher.
I do not love deeply Andrewt and some others that seems that "know all"...also Andrew, for sure do not love me too...but i have learned a lot reading his posts.
He is a good contribution, for us, dummies, to remove our feet from the lame of ignorance.
C'a marche!...allons enfants de la electronique!
Le jour the gloirie c'est arrivé
Contre nous de la tiranie de les personnes qui connait di tout
regards,
Carlos
because i have readed the whole forum twice and going for the third time.
Informs here, there and everywhere go joining together.
I have made to young friends, in portuguese and i have made in English too, some audios teaching how to design an amplifier alike Aksa and Dx amplifier....the bootstrapp ones.... i will search for those audio files, MP3 files, and i am sure that knowing basic Mathematics you will be able to understand.
Ohms law, resistances in parallel and series, ressonance of circuits, knowledge how capacitors and inductors works, knowledge how the transistor works are needed, and we have, all of us, this basic understanding...than some tricks to make design easy.
If interested to listen those audios, go to my personal mail:
panzertoo@yahoo.com
Was "how to design an amplifier beeing a dummy"
I have to search for those files...i have not sure i have them.....but i will try to have them back if lost in contact with three forum friends that have copies of that.
The same way you can calculate, design a building using high level Mathematics, you can also use experience, observation, and to build, of course using many times more larger base and going installing bricks over bricks.... also using a piece of metal that have weigth and a rope...a line to see if your wall is really 90 degrees related the ground..... of course, less precise, of course your building will have enormous thick walls as you had in the past..but your building will be constructed, a lot of material will be wasted, but it will be stand still and people will leave there for hundred years without problems...at least...not too much problems.
The same way, not beeing a construction Engineer...not buiding using the last technologies you can do using "experience" and a good sense related things you can make your amplifier too.
I made mine...because of forum...and sound nice...was a happy experience.
I think the audio describes, with simple calculations, how to make the dx amplifier......knowing that, you can go to more complicated designs, as i am already doing this.
Of course an EE will find thing not precise...too much current here...waste of energy there....not a good idea here or there...bad decision taken about the input condenser..it could be better...well.... will not be perfect but will make you happy and will sound fine.
The top high end amplifiers are sounding, here at my home...a little bit better than my "frankstein"..as i have used forum ideas...things that came from many amplifiers...i have joined together and i made ohms law calculations and basic knowledge of circuitry...learned here also.
This forum is a nice teacher.
I do not love deeply Andrewt and some others that seems that "know all"...also Andrew, for sure do not love me too...but i have learned a lot reading his posts.
He is a good contribution, for us, dummies, to remove our feet from the lame of ignorance.
C'a marche!...allons enfants de la electronique!
Le jour the gloirie c'est arrivé
Contre nous de la tiranie de les personnes qui connait di tout
regards,
Carlos
Aksa is the finest masterpiece of sonic art in my point of view
Was clear to me, that trying to make it better, that i could not!
I have tried all modifications...everything that we have in the now a days electronics..... i have installed CCS, regulated supplies, different voltages to the input, different ideas related the output transistors, different transistors...i have removed all special parts.... i have installed VAS mirrors..... current sinks...well.... i have tried...and i have made that during monthes...maybe an entire year.
Hugh found the best solution possible to that topologie.... he extract, scratch, obtained the best from that circuit...the maximum we can do is to make exactly as he did.... and this shows to me, clearly, that he is the man!
My amplifier turn better using his subcircuits and ideas.... i could not match his sonics.... Dx lost for Aksa...beeing the same topologie....looking the schematic fast, you will tell that they are the same...but there are differences of course...all currents are different and there are missing sub circuits in mine unit, also i have sub circuit that Aksa do not have and the 55 is not needing my sub circuit contribution..for sure.
All topologie can be developed to good sonics, but there are exceptions..there are circuits that you watch and you see that it is more a compressor than an audio amplifier.... transistors connected into automatic gain control schematic compresses the audio.... you perceive the sound as inside a Jail...arrested.... sounding alike you have a carpet over.... that is playing inside the next room...not in front of you.
He made a nice job...for sure he made.
I use to make amplifiers and i felt them good...some of them are good...but good till i put them into A to B...than the deceptive feeling..... Aksa win!... the one that was good...is not good anymore...sounded mufled... not alive.... strong but fake...woman voice not making you feel emotion...just a voice!.... deception.
I do not like the low end of Aksa...the bass into 25 hertz is not enougth to me..this is the single negative point in my mind...but he had fixed that into Lifeforce.
The Jail sonics i have found come from this circuit....not exactly, as there are wrong resistances in it...but the idea...this is a VAS.... watch the circuit...my God!
regards,
Carlos
Was clear to me, that trying to make it better, that i could not!
I have tried all modifications...everything that we have in the now a days electronics..... i have installed CCS, regulated supplies, different voltages to the input, different ideas related the output transistors, different transistors...i have removed all special parts.... i have installed VAS mirrors..... current sinks...well.... i have tried...and i have made that during monthes...maybe an entire year.
Hugh found the best solution possible to that topologie.... he extract, scratch, obtained the best from that circuit...the maximum we can do is to make exactly as he did.... and this shows to me, clearly, that he is the man!
My amplifier turn better using his subcircuits and ideas.... i could not match his sonics.... Dx lost for Aksa...beeing the same topologie....looking the schematic fast, you will tell that they are the same...but there are differences of course...all currents are different and there are missing sub circuits in mine unit, also i have sub circuit that Aksa do not have and the 55 is not needing my sub circuit contribution..for sure.
All topologie can be developed to good sonics, but there are exceptions..there are circuits that you watch and you see that it is more a compressor than an audio amplifier.... transistors connected into automatic gain control schematic compresses the audio.... you perceive the sound as inside a Jail...arrested.... sounding alike you have a carpet over.... that is playing inside the next room...not in front of you.
He made a nice job...for sure he made.
I use to make amplifiers and i felt them good...some of them are good...but good till i put them into A to B...than the deceptive feeling..... Aksa win!... the one that was good...is not good anymore...sounded mufled... not alive.... strong but fake...woman voice not making you feel emotion...just a voice!.... deception.
I do not like the low end of Aksa...the bass into 25 hertz is not enougth to me..this is the single negative point in my mind...but he had fixed that into Lifeforce.
The Jail sonics i have found come from this circuit....not exactly, as there are wrong resistances in it...but the idea...this is a VAS.... watch the circuit...my God!
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
gaetan8888 said:
Gaetan,
relatively speaking, the mathematics in electronics is rather low level, unless you go to molecule scale.
Civil and mining engineering are the traditional techie disciplines with even lower grade math training.
My math professor from way back always had the look of in need of a vomit bag whenever he talked about grading mining exam papers. (i may end up being crucified for saying this
)There have been a few frequent posters here who master the electronics math quite well, but seemed never to get beyond the stage of theory.
On the other hand, some members with a long hands-on track record still do not fully master the penthouse level of electronics math.
Just this week, Nelson Pass is teaching a few people how to calculate the gain of a single JFET input stage.
Especially The Man himself tells people to build, and learn while you're doing it.
The bi-monthly editions of l'Audiophile frequently had tech articles on the how and why, such as the ones by Hephaistos in the "new series" editions.
A guy in France has scanned the important stuff of all l'Audiophile editons, and offers a CD package on the internet. (afair, the yearly subscription fee for 6 l'Audiophile mags cost me the equivalent of $65 )
You can learn a lot from books on opamps and books on electronics that cover the basics, get some "en Francais" from a library and xerox the interesting bits.
When they turn off the gas at the start of ww-3 you can heat the house for weeks, like me.
I recollect having to design a piece of equipment for a navy seals diving support vessel, figured i needed a computer and several of my math books to do the calculating. The designer guy who was auditing me just pulled a sheet with real practice numbers from his desk drawer and did the essential basic calculation in 30 seconds.
Yes klaas.... they may be two long audio files describing the Dx amplifier design
Send them back to me Klaas.... i think after i have sent to you and more two folks i have deleted.
regards,
Carlos
..............................................................................................................
Gaetan
You seem to be an old friend...but i cannot remember your real name..so... send me a mail with your adress.
I am old Gaetan....i am 56.... already having some problems related "short time" memory.
Files already arriving my mail box, please, mail me your adress Gaetan:
panzertoo@yahoo.com
regards,
Carlos
Send them back to me Klaas.... i think after i have sent to you and more two folks i have deleted.
regards,
Carlos
..............................................................................................................
Gaetan
You seem to be an old friend...but i cannot remember your real name..so... send me a mail with your adress.
I am old Gaetan....i am 56.... already having some problems related "short time" memory.
Files already arriving my mail box, please, mail me your adress Gaetan:
panzertoo@yahoo.com
regards,
Carlos
Well...you may love him Mr. Line down ...but it seems to me to be a kick in
Ball.. Mr Greg Ball..... i think he was not kind.... i want him happy and rich.... very distant from me, if possible, he could move to Júpiter.
I do not read his posts..... not readed also in the past.... he was in my ignore list and the thread unsubscribed as i had, many times, the need to jump into the monitor screen to put my hands on...well...you understand the smashing bell's behavior.
I do not even watch his amplifiers.... receiving those amplifier i will give them a shot...nothing that can arrive from him can be good in my point of view...bad behavior i could find on him.
I think the "celebrating man"... the one is subject of this thread, even beeing a Saint inside his heart, will not be happy with his presence in the texts here....in a thread that is mentioning Aksa.
To be famous climbing into other's backs.... the crab behavior.... easy...not fair...not good enougth.
Hummm.... i do not love him...certainly!
People can think different and love him deeply.... freedom we have to think different, to evaluate different, but to put a cat and a mouse inside the same place.... may produce some strike.
I do not know why Line up remembered him.... that was not a good idea Line up.... this one, this man, inside Aksa thread is provocation to crash!
There are moments that your anjo ring disappear...open the window dear line up, and let ligth enter once more.
Of course i could misunderstood you dear Lineup, as i am bad with the English language...but some smoke is exausting from by ears.
This message is published open to all people to read, because you have blocked the entrance into your mail box. Mr Line up.......hummm..this is bad...one way communication behavior...you can say but cannot listen.
That possibility to block adress and some others do not post their real data into the profile...people hidden..some of them use that coward behavior and i do not know why forum management allow them to be with us...of course Line up cannot be included into bad folk or coward for sure....but you see that forces us to open messages that could be sent directly.
I am sorry, but in my country...if we have a group of friends and someone is hurt.... the entire group will react into the defense or counter attack...i think.... this is real friendship...community feeling..brotherhood.
Grrrrrr!
regards,
Carlos
Ball.. Mr Greg Ball..... i think he was not kind.... i want him happy and rich.... very distant from me, if possible, he could move to Júpiter.
I do not read his posts..... not readed also in the past.... he was in my ignore list and the thread unsubscribed as i had, many times, the need to jump into the monitor screen to put my hands on...well...you understand the smashing bell's behavior.
I do not even watch his amplifiers.... receiving those amplifier i will give them a shot...nothing that can arrive from him can be good in my point of view...bad behavior i could find on him.
I think the "celebrating man"... the one is subject of this thread, even beeing a Saint inside his heart, will not be happy with his presence in the texts here....in a thread that is mentioning Aksa.
To be famous climbing into other's backs.... the crab behavior.... easy...not fair...not good enougth.
Hummm.... i do not love him...certainly!
People can think different and love him deeply.... freedom we have to think different, to evaluate different, but to put a cat and a mouse inside the same place.... may produce some strike.
I do not know why Line up remembered him.... that was not a good idea Line up.... this one, this man, inside Aksa thread is provocation to crash!
There are moments that your anjo ring disappear...open the window dear line up, and let ligth enter once more.
Of course i could misunderstood you dear Lineup, as i am bad with the English language...but some smoke is exausting from by ears.
This message is published open to all people to read, because you have blocked the entrance into your mail box. Mr Line up.......hummm..this is bad...one way communication behavior...you can say but cannot listen.
That possibility to block adress and some others do not post their real data into the profile...people hidden..some of them use that coward behavior and i do not know why forum management allow them to be with us...of course Line up cannot be included into bad folk or coward for sure....but you see that forces us to open messages that could be sent directly.
I am sorry, but in my country...if we have a group of friends and someone is hurt.... the entire group will react into the defense or counter attack...i think.... this is real friendship...community feeling..brotherhood.
Grrrrrr!
regards,
Carlos
Carlos, Lineup,
The SKA is a good amplifier. I give credit where it is due. Like all designs, including mine, there are issues to address but the market is big enough for everyone and there is no reason to criticise it. Many have been sold and people are happy.
I emphatically do not compete with others. I compete with myself. If I sold no more amps for the rest of my life, I would naturally be disappointed, but I would still design amps as it's in my blood these days and I cannot stop, such is the level of my compulsive-obsessive behaviour. It is just life......
High end to me is not about the amps anyway, it is about the music. We humans love music, and we listen to it with enthusiasm because it tickles our soul. The electronics should disappear. Low distortion figures are helpful, but they are not the only answer as our ears are very subtle instruments.
The engineering must be done, and it is all fairly low order maths once at the test bench, and very few really good amps are poorly engineered. So the mutually exclusive arguments about good sound bad engineering and vice versa are, in my view, humbug.
Carlos, no defense is required against the unassailable........ but thank you.
Cheers,
Hugh
The SKA is a good amplifier. I give credit where it is due. Like all designs, including mine, there are issues to address but the market is big enough for everyone and there is no reason to criticise it. Many have been sold and people are happy.
I emphatically do not compete with others. I compete with myself. If I sold no more amps for the rest of my life, I would naturally be disappointed, but I would still design amps as it's in my blood these days and I cannot stop, such is the level of my compulsive-obsessive behaviour. It is just life......
High end to me is not about the amps anyway, it is about the music. We humans love music, and we listen to it with enthusiasm because it tickles our soul. The electronics should disappear. Low distortion figures are helpful, but they are not the only answer as our ears are very subtle instruments.
The engineering must be done, and it is all fairly low order maths once at the test bench, and very few really good amps are poorly engineered. So the mutually exclusive arguments about good sound bad engineering and vice versa are, in my view, humbug.
Carlos, no defense is required against the unassailable........ but thank you.
Cheers,
Hugh
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