Hi everybody,
a lurker-become-DIY-first-timer in speaker building, i have a few questions for you "pros" :
i'm waiting for a few T-Amp units to arrive, and would like to prepare their new home so that they'll feel welcome and adopted from the beginning
I searched and read a whole lot on the forum, and already decided to go with the FE207E's in a SINGULAR enclosure. Printed the designs, started to calculate, and went to search for the drivers...only to find out that the cheapest units i could find are priced around 100 euros a piece. I kind of, well, hoped that i could find them for that price a pair, but no go.
So here i am, back in the beginning, except that i've no idea what project to do instead. And here's where i'm asking for your help. What cheaper project could i do for starters ?
Understanding that all this is very subjective, i'll try and give you some information that might help : i will mod the T-Amp (the whole lot - bigger caps, PSU and what-not), so this means the bass will be improved from the stock version. My listening room is rather small, around 6x3,5m. I'm listening to music that's generally asking for bass (but in fact it goes from Tori Amos to Cure to Ultravox to Tangerine Dream to Dead Can Dance to Skinny Puppy to IDM to Ambient to Songs:Ohia, so loads of different stuff except classical --> never, nor techno for that matter. In fact it's either indie electronic or alt rock.)...
Now, for the enclosure : should be discrete. I decided i could live with the size of the SINGULAR, since it's very discrete, but some exotic horns would not cut it (at least for the time being).
I've seen some smaller designs (such as the SOLO 103 ), but have *no idea* as to what they're worth as main speakers...
But it's not mandatory that they'll be *as* small as that. Let's say that anything around SINGULAR-size will do fine.
There, i think i've covered the needs, now i need a solution
Thanks in advance for your help
Seb.
a lurker-become-DIY-first-timer in speaker building, i have a few questions for you "pros" :
i'm waiting for a few T-Amp units to arrive, and would like to prepare their new home so that they'll feel welcome and adopted from the beginning
I searched and read a whole lot on the forum, and already decided to go with the FE207E's in a SINGULAR enclosure. Printed the designs, started to calculate, and went to search for the drivers...only to find out that the cheapest units i could find are priced around 100 euros a piece. I kind of, well, hoped that i could find them for that price a pair, but no go.
So here i am, back in the beginning, except that i've no idea what project to do instead. And here's where i'm asking for your help. What cheaper project could i do for starters ?
Understanding that all this is very subjective, i'll try and give you some information that might help : i will mod the T-Amp (the whole lot - bigger caps, PSU and what-not), so this means the bass will be improved from the stock version. My listening room is rather small, around 6x3,5m. I'm listening to music that's generally asking for bass (but in fact it goes from Tori Amos to Cure to Ultravox to Tangerine Dream to Dead Can Dance to Skinny Puppy to IDM to Ambient to Songs:Ohia, so loads of different stuff except classical --> never, nor techno for that matter. In fact it's either indie electronic or alt rock.)...
Now, for the enclosure : should be discrete. I decided i could live with the size of the SINGULAR, since it's very discrete, but some exotic horns would not cut it (at least for the time being).
I've seen some smaller designs (such as the SOLO 103 ), but have *no idea* as to what they're worth as main speakers...
But it's not mandatory that they'll be *as* small as that. Let's say that anything around SINGULAR-size will do fine.
There, i think i've covered the needs, now i need a solution
Thanks in advance for your help
Seb.
Hey, thanks Scott, that sure looks like a fun project, and fills in what i was looking for...except that i just did some googleing and i can't find the Pioneer drivers anywhere in France. Given the weight and possible taxes when declaring it, i doubt it'll be worth it from abroad 
Dang, i didn't think it would be so difficult to find drivers here in france (or in fact you do, but the rather expensive ones). Nothing like RS here...
In fact, i think it'll not be a choice for a given project, but a projet chosen depending on the drivers i can find.
I've seen some VISATON FRS8 for practically nothing, are they worth anything (will have to do some more searching) ? Also, to return to FOSTEX, i've seen the following in the sub-100E/pair range :
- FE103E --> 49E/pcs
- FE107E --> 53E/pcs
- FE127E --> 56E/pcs
Ok so i should have checked my sources before
Jeez, suddenly this doesn't seem too well (even though i know you get nothing for nothing)...
Dang, i didn't think it would be so difficult to find drivers here in france (or in fact you do, but the rather expensive ones). Nothing like RS here...
In fact, i think it'll not be a choice for a given project, but a projet chosen depending on the drivers i can find.
I've seen some VISATON FRS8 for practically nothing, are they worth anything (will have to do some more searching) ? Also, to return to FOSTEX, i've seen the following in the sub-100E/pair range :
- FE103E --> 49E/pcs
- FE107E --> 53E/pcs
- FE127E --> 56E/pcs
Ok so i should have checked my sources before
Jeez, suddenly this doesn't seem too well (even though i know you get nothing for nothing)...
Hi
the Visaton FRS8 is only 82db, I guess that won't work with the T-Amp. You will want something like 90 dB.
Monacor has some pretty okay and cheap fullrangers, the SP155X in about 20-30 Liter BR might be a good bang for the buck in europe, as the Pioneer B20 is just too pricy here.
Or you go with the Beyma 8AG/N horn or "Das Viech", very popular, highly efficient and this animal can play Rock & Roll.
best, LC
the Visaton FRS8 is only 82db, I guess that won't work with the T-Amp. You will want something like 90 dB.
Monacor has some pretty okay and cheap fullrangers, the SP155X in about 20-30 Liter BR might be a good bang for the buck in europe, as the Pioneer B20 is just too pricy here.
Or you go with the Beyma 8AG/N horn or "Das Viech", very popular, highly efficient and this animal can play Rock & Roll.
best, LC
I have built the solo103's and although they would shine with the T-amp (I tried it and they did) it would not fulfill your musical needs. The solo is really too subtle and small for rock music. It lacks bass and will not do complex music well. I would recommend the cyburg tangband needle (cheap, fun to build, good quality, reasonable efficiency) or the Fostex FE126/127 in their recommended BLH enclosures. Or you can build yourself something a little more complex but highly praised such as the Buschhorn or newer Frugelhorn. It is not that difficult to make...
All would be happy when driven by the T-amp.
Good luck!
All would be happy when driven by the T-amp.
Good luck!
The Monacor SP200X would be a good replacement for the Pioneer too.
Normally, I'd suggest the Monacor SPH-60 in Bigger Is Better horns: www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp -if you look at the Monacor tag you'll see the dimensions I suggest for this driver: mooch around these pages Dave put together for further build information. Only problem with this one is: a) you need corners to load them right, and b) they might be too tall for your tate. I find them elegant myself, but that's down to personal preference.
Normally, I'd suggest the Monacor SPH-60 in Bigger Is Better horns: www.zillaspeak.com/bib.asp -if you look at the Monacor tag you'll see the dimensions I suggest for this driver: mooch around these pages Dave put together for further build information. Only problem with this one is: a) you need corners to load them right, and b) they might be too tall for your tate. I find them elegant myself, but that's down to personal preference.
Thanks for referencing my Pioneer/Piezo project Scott! It really is a nice sounding speaker… especially for the money. It works perfectly with the SI amp too. It makes me all tingly inside to see how expensive this ‘cheap’ driver is over seas. While it will trounce the smaller full rangers in the bass and has a nice warmth of its own it isn’t the clearest sounding midrange when compared to Fostex and some others.
If warm bass is your priority and mids can be recessed and slightly blurred than the Pioneer B20 is a great driver. If you can add a sub and prefer a clear bright sound look at the Fostex 127e. They also work great with the SI amp! Maybe you can build something like the Omega speakers.
http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/
If warm bass is your priority and mids can be recessed and slightly blurred than the Pioneer B20 is a great driver. If you can add a sub and prefer a clear bright sound look at the Fostex 127e. They also work great with the SI amp! Maybe you can build something like the Omega speakers.
http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-828
http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/mini me.htm
Way to simple! It will be Hi-Fi. The only trick to it is the sweet spot is very sweet and not very big.
That or get what ever is on sale at www.madisound.com for Fostex drivers, they all work.
http://www.omegaloudspeakers.com/mini me.htm
Way to simple! It will be Hi-Fi. The only trick to it is the sweet spot is very sweet and not very big.
That or get what ever is on sale at www.madisound.com for Fostex drivers, they all work.
The Visaton BG20 may be a good project.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65427 My thread about those TB W4-1052, those are definately worth a try.
Josh
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65427 My thread about those TB W4-1052, those are definately worth a try.
Josh
Hi
Scott, compared to the Viech, the Monacor BIB is truely elegant!!! Is your Monacor-BIB playing already?
Btw. on the Single Driver Website you actually find a project using the Monacor SP 200X with Piezo supertweeter the Quasi.Mo.D.O..
best, LC
Scott, compared to the Viech, the Monacor BIB is truely elegant!!! Is your Monacor-BIB playing already?
Btw. on the Single Driver Website you actually find a project using the Monacor SP 200X with Piezo supertweeter the Quasi.Mo.D.O..
best, LC
I use the T-amp for nearfield listening with the Visaton FRS8 (4 ohm version) and despite the supposed mismatch with low power and low efficiency they go more than loud enough. I think that given the very low price you should give them a go as a first project (that's what I've done and am now planning to move onto bigger and hopefully better things). I have them in sealed 1L enclosures and they sound great (with surprising amounts of bass).
Hey guys, thanks a lot for all your recommandations
I'll have some reading to do with all this...
--> gaust : that's great ! I so hoped that someone would come up with a positive review for the combo, since in fact i can get those drivers very easily, not to mention for dirt cheap (12.5 euros/pcs) no problem.
I spent an hour to read a lot of info about the Cyburgs Needles with the Visatons, thought that i had found what i was looking for, before lovechild reminded me about the 90dB recommandation for the T-Amp. This is indeed what i've read
Now, ultimately, would it mean it wouldn't be able to drive them at all ? I really am a novice when it becomes to this sort of measurement, but i'm definitively not searching for anything able to shake the building i'm living in. If it still meets the same sonic abilities, but just with less power, i can live with that. But i'll take your word on that, so let's get it over with : would the Cyburgs Needle design (or any other for that matter as this is not the enclosure your using gaust) with Visaton FRS8 work with T-Amp, even though they're 82dB ? If yes, this is what i'll go for, if not...well...
In the meantime, i'm off to read some more with all your propositions.
Thanks again with all your help, it's great that you're so easy on the newbies like myself
I'll have some reading to do with all this...
--> gaust : that's great ! I so hoped that someone would come up with a positive review for the combo, since in fact i can get those drivers very easily, not to mention for dirt cheap (12.5 euros/pcs) no problem.
I spent an hour to read a lot of info about the Cyburgs Needles with the Visatons, thought that i had found what i was looking for, before lovechild reminded me about the 90dB recommandation for the T-Amp. This is indeed what i've read
Now, ultimately, would it mean it wouldn't be able to drive them at all ? I really am a novice when it becomes to this sort of measurement, but i'm definitively not searching for anything able to shake the building i'm living in. If it still meets the same sonic abilities, but just with less power, i can live with that. But i'll take your word on that, so let's get it over with : would the Cyburgs Needle design (or any other for that matter as this is not the enclosure your using gaust) with Visaton FRS8 work with T-Amp, even though they're 82dB ? If yes, this is what i'll go for, if not...well...
In the meantime, i'm off to read some more with all your propositions.
Thanks again with all your help, it's great that you're so easy on the newbies like myself
Hi Hersh
if you want to go with the needle, which is not a bad speaker at all, you should consider to take the Tangband W3-871S for 19.00 Euro/piece instead of the FRS8. This is a proven tweak and the Tangband is 88dB (+3dB means two times as loud) and it is sayed that it also sounds better.
LC
if you want to go with the needle, which is not a bad speaker at all, you should consider to take the Tangband W3-871S for 19.00 Euro/piece instead of the FRS8. This is a proven tweak and the Tangband is 88dB (+3dB means two times as loud) and it is sayed that it also sounds better.
LC
I've used an 41Hz Amp3 which is just slightly more powerfull than a T amp to drive two visatons FR10 4 ohm. They are 86 db 4" loudspeakers which behave very well in BR enclosures (the 4 Ohm version) unlike the FRS8 (which does not liek BR enclosures that much)
For the price the performance is absolutely jaw dropping. I've just demonstrated them on a dutch DIY listening session.
If you can read dutch: somewhere in the midle of the page
http://forum.zelfbouwaudio.nl/viewtopic.php?t=2101&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=240
For the price the performance is absolutely jaw dropping. I've just demonstrated them on a dutch DIY listening session.
If you can read dutch: somewhere in the midle of the page
http://forum.zelfbouwaudio.nl/viewtopic.php?t=2101&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=240
I have built the needles for the FRS8, but found that although more bass was produced than from the sealed boxes it was less tight and a bit boomy. I now have some Tangband W3-871s that I intend to put into the needles and see how these compare. I still stick by FRS8 as a first project though as making a sealed 1 L enclosure is easy, and they sound good, which can give you encouragement to move onto something more complicated.
Ok, after a lot of research and such, i think the most important is just start doing *something*. Therefore i'm adopting the rational approach (which has nothing to do with my true nature, quite the opposite in fact) : go for the cheapest with something simple, and have fun learning. Then move on to the next. And so on...
I'm having the irritating habit of planning the overkill project everytime, and skipping the basics. But this time i'll go the simple-&-budget-way to start from : the most readily available for cheapest - so, i'll get a few of them cheapo Visaton FRS8's and do the Cyburgs Needle. Then i'll listen and see if they suit the purpose. If yes, later on i'll upgrade the drivers and put the Visatons in some close-field boxes on the table. If not, i'll try and put them directly in a smaller enclosure like gaust suggests. That way nothing is wasted. I also found a supply for MONACOR for a reasonable price, and plan to do the Quasi.Mo.D.O./Pioneer+Piezo design during the summer (i found the MONACOR SP200X drivers for 32 euros/pcs). They should suffice me for a while, before attacking the initial FE207E/SINGULAR project when i'll have some more cash. Either way, it's not going to stay "cheap" for a long when the DIY bites you, i've learned it with my short experience with the headphone amps --> wallet
Not to forget, in the meantime there's the T-Amp to take care of...
For the other projects, i liked the idea of BiB, but couldn't locate any SPH-60 as of yet. Viech Horn, the same thing for Beyma 8AG/N. But i'm sure i will, with some time
So i guess that's that for theory. I just wanted to thank you once more for all the helpful replys, and i'll try and keep you posted about the results. Don't worry, i'm sure i'll be back in the meantime for more advice once the building starts
Seb.
I'm having the irritating habit of planning the overkill project everytime, and skipping the basics. But this time i'll go the simple-&-budget-way to start from : the most readily available for cheapest - so, i'll get a few of them cheapo Visaton FRS8's and do the Cyburgs Needle. Then i'll listen and see if they suit the purpose. If yes, later on i'll upgrade the drivers and put the Visatons in some close-field boxes on the table. If not, i'll try and put them directly in a smaller enclosure like gaust suggests. That way nothing is wasted. I also found a supply for MONACOR for a reasonable price, and plan to do the Quasi.Mo.D.O./Pioneer+Piezo design during the summer (i found the MONACOR SP200X drivers for 32 euros/pcs). They should suffice me for a while, before attacking the initial FE207E/SINGULAR project when i'll have some more cash. Either way, it's not going to stay "cheap" for a long when the DIY bites you, i've learned it with my short experience with the headphone amps --> wallet
Not to forget, in the meantime there's the T-Amp to take care of...
For the other projects, i liked the idea of BiB, but couldn't locate any SPH-60 as of yet. Viech Horn, the same thing for Beyma 8AG/N. But i'm sure i will, with some time
So i guess that's that for theory. I just wanted to thank you once more for all the helpful replys, and i'll try and keep you posted about the results. Don't worry, i'm sure i'll be back in the meantime for more advice once the building starts
Seb.
Im just in the process of building another pair of tqwt enclosures (old habits die hard), one is up and running for tuning and sounds superb.
The drive units are kef uni-q, a co-axial design. I have been playing with lots of damping material, and have found the best solution is a thin (1.5mm) felt or beize you know the pool/snooker table stuff, glued on the back and side walls best.
Anything in the line just killed the ambience factor for me. Original BR enclosure yielded 90db, side by side comparison indicates the new enclosure subjectively more efficient, with a much lower and deeper bottom end.
Will post some pics soon, incidentally, I am bi-amping with two stock SI t-amps.
Hope this is useful.
The drive units are kef uni-q, a co-axial design. I have been playing with lots of damping material, and have found the best solution is a thin (1.5mm) felt or beize you know the pool/snooker table stuff, glued on the back and side walls best.
Anything in the line just killed the ambience factor for me. Original BR enclosure yielded 90db, side by side comparison indicates the new enclosure subjectively more efficient, with a much lower and deeper bottom end.
Will post some pics soon, incidentally, I am bi-amping with two stock SI t-amps.
Hope this is useful.
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