I am a newbie to diy. I plan to build a killer hometheater sub. I want it to be extremely musical as well. I was first thinking of using two elemantal design E12A subs in a sealed enclosure. After reading about the tumult, I think I will use this sub instead.
Any other suggestions?
It looks like a 2.5 ft3 enclosure would yield good results. Seems like this sub has enough potential to yield very good results in a sealed box, or should I vent it.
I currently own a M&K MX125 mkII sub. I want to build something that can kick this subs butt.
I was planning to use a samson S1500 amp with 2 X 750w into 4 ohm channels. I'd like to keep costs relatively low. I planned on less than $1500, hopefully less than $1000 for the whole setup. Any other suggestions?
I have a home theater that opens to the rest of the house, yielding 850 sq ft and 8 ft cielings. 6800ft3 total. my main speakers are def tec 2002's.
Any other suggestions?
It looks like a 2.5 ft3 enclosure would yield good results. Seems like this sub has enough potential to yield very good results in a sealed box, or should I vent it.
I currently own a M&K MX125 mkII sub. I want to build something that can kick this subs butt.
I was planning to use a samson S1500 amp with 2 X 750w into 4 ohm channels. I'd like to keep costs relatively low. I planned on less than $1500, hopefully less than $1000 for the whole setup. Any other suggestions?
I have a home theater that opens to the rest of the house, yielding 850 sq ft and 8 ft cielings. 6800ft3 total. my main speakers are def tec 2002's.
Hehe
Hi,
I don't think that Tumult and musical should go in the same sentence! Just my opinion but I guess it depends on the degree of musicality you want. It's heritage is car audio after all where SPL alone reins and minimizing distortion is a much less significant issue. To be honest though, I have not heard it implemented.
If you want amplitude with high power input (which you have), I'm sure this is a fine way to go. If you want quality, try a transmission line or a Koonce's Infinite Box (not baffle). You could also try a Peerless 831857 and save some serious money. If you want to justify sound by spending money (and get a purdy driver), try something like the Seas W26.
Just a couple ideas, but I'm sure that mine is not a popular opinion when size and testosterone appears to make up many people's mind.
Either way, enjoy your decision!
Brendon
Hi,
I don't think that Tumult and musical should go in the same sentence! Just my opinion but I guess it depends on the degree of musicality you want. It's heritage is car audio after all where SPL alone reins and minimizing distortion is a much less significant issue. To be honest though, I have not heard it implemented.
If you want amplitude with high power input (which you have), I'm sure this is a fine way to go. If you want quality, try a transmission line or a Koonce's Infinite Box (not baffle). You could also try a Peerless 831857 and save some serious money. If you want to justify sound by spending money (and get a purdy driver), try something like the Seas W26.
Just a couple ideas, but I'm sure that mine is not a popular opinion when size and testosterone appears to make up many people's mind.
Either way, enjoy your decision!
Brendon
I'm not laughing
"I don't think that Tumult and musical should go in the same sentence! Just my opinion but I guess it depends on the degree of musicality you want. It's heritage is car audio after all where SPL alone reins and minimizing distortion is a much less significant issue."
Brendon,
Out of curiosity, are you at all familiar with the Adire Tumult? What exactly is your opinion based on? Directly from Adire's website:
Best of all, Tumult uses our patent-pending XBL2 motor technology. This new motor design yields the flattest BL curve of any motor design. And a flatter BL curve means lower distortion, and reduced dynamics compression. Truer to the signal - better sound. And contrary to what some claim, it doesn't sacrifice ANY BL or motor strength; in fact, the Tumult has more motor strength than just about any home audio driver available today.
http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/xbl2_motors.htm
And Mark Seaton's take on Adire's XBL2 motors
Contrary to what you might say or believe, Dan has taken the matter of distortion quite seriously, as evidenced by his already excellent Brahma series of woofers, and now by the new Tumult and Sadhara, even if he doesn't include the standard "musicality" specification. Who's to say you can't have high output at low distortion levels? As someone I know says, "Loud is beautiful, if it's clean."
Your opinion isn't popular not because of either size or testosterone, but because it's not grounded in cold, hard facts - the first thing I look for when deciding on a driver.
David,
I'm in agreement with griff. The Tumult will work well in a sealed subwoofer, but considering the size of your room, I'd try to go bass reflex if at all possible, or perhaps introduce a Linkwitz Transform circuit to the system.
"I don't think that Tumult and musical should go in the same sentence! Just my opinion but I guess it depends on the degree of musicality you want. It's heritage is car audio after all where SPL alone reins and minimizing distortion is a much less significant issue."
Brendon,
Out of curiosity, are you at all familiar with the Adire Tumult? What exactly is your opinion based on? Directly from Adire's website:
Best of all, Tumult uses our patent-pending XBL2 motor technology. This new motor design yields the flattest BL curve of any motor design. And a flatter BL curve means lower distortion, and reduced dynamics compression. Truer to the signal - better sound. And contrary to what some claim, it doesn't sacrifice ANY BL or motor strength; in fact, the Tumult has more motor strength than just about any home audio driver available today.
http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/xbl2_motors.htm
And Mark Seaton's take on Adire's XBL2 motors
Contrary to what you might say or believe, Dan has taken the matter of distortion quite seriously, as evidenced by his already excellent Brahma series of woofers, and now by the new Tumult and Sadhara, even if he doesn't include the standard "musicality" specification. Who's to say you can't have high output at low distortion levels? As someone I know says, "Loud is beautiful, if it's clean."
Your opinion isn't popular not because of either size or testosterone, but because it's not grounded in cold, hard facts - the first thing I look for when deciding on a driver.
David,
I'm in agreement with griff. The Tumult will work well in a sealed subwoofer, but considering the size of your room, I'd try to go bass reflex if at all possible, or perhaps introduce a Linkwitz Transform circuit to the system.
Not to nitt pick, but since you brought it up...
Griff, I didn't say it wasn't a non-car audio driver. I said that's where its heritage came from.
"Take a Brahma - one of the greatest car audio woofers available today - and adapt it for home use. Add a bit more Xmax, more power handling, and re-design the driver for suitable use in home. What do you get? Tumult."
All I was offering were some options that are 'outside the box'. What I offered beyond the choice of driver is the choice of enclosure. Passiver radiators are one way to go, but it provides the same response as a vented enclosure without the chuff. For musicality, other options may be more desireable to some.
As I said, my view may not be everyone's favourite. Audio is all about compromises and you have to make your own choices of what you want to live with. Tumult and vented enclosures are simply not in my interest. That's all.
Brendon
Griff, I didn't say it wasn't a non-car audio driver. I said that's where its heritage came from.
"Take a Brahma - one of the greatest car audio woofers available today - and adapt it for home use. Add a bit more Xmax, more power handling, and re-design the driver for suitable use in home. What do you get? Tumult."
All I was offering were some options that are 'outside the box'. What I offered beyond the choice of driver is the choice of enclosure. Passiver radiators are one way to go, but it provides the same response as a vented enclosure without the chuff. For musicality, other options may be more desireable to some.
As I said, my view may not be everyone's favourite. Audio is all about compromises and you have to make your own choices of what you want to live with. Tumult and vented enclosures are simply not in my interest. That's all.
Brendon
Peter,
I dont' know my I'm bothering but in the first paragraph I indicated that I had not heard a Tumult system. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not trying to trash that. I don't mean to offend anyone on this either - it's simply my 'opinion'. There are many ways to skin a cat. You choose yours and I'll choose mine. If someone asks a question on a public board, I will offer what I feel are reasonable ideas.
Out of curiousity, what does Tumult offer that other, significantly less expensive drivers do not? What of its spec's do you like? You'll notice this is not a highly sensitive driver. It's built for brute force - displacement til the cows come home. I'm open to an exchange of ideas.
Also, I'm not criticising the engineering of the unit. Not question, great lengths have gone into this driver. I'm mearly trying to offer road less travelled. So, what do you think was the most important factor in the design of this driver? My perspective is that its excursion limits are primary. If this becomes the constraint, what do you think becomes secondary, no matter how much effort is put into it to minimize it. It's my opinion, but if a designer puts a no-holds-barred constraint on the 'musicality spec' as you put it then, no doubt, other things such as displacement become secodary.
So feel free to agree with whomever you wish, that's your choice.
Brendon
I dont' know my I'm bothering but in the first paragraph I indicated that I had not heard a Tumult system. You're entitled to your opinion and I'm not trying to trash that. I don't mean to offend anyone on this either - it's simply my 'opinion'. There are many ways to skin a cat. You choose yours and I'll choose mine. If someone asks a question on a public board, I will offer what I feel are reasonable ideas.
Out of curiousity, what does Tumult offer that other, significantly less expensive drivers do not? What of its spec's do you like? You'll notice this is not a highly sensitive driver. It's built for brute force - displacement til the cows come home. I'm open to an exchange of ideas.
Also, I'm not criticising the engineering of the unit. Not question, great lengths have gone into this driver. I'm mearly trying to offer road less travelled. So, what do you think was the most important factor in the design of this driver? My perspective is that its excursion limits are primary. If this becomes the constraint, what do you think becomes secondary, no matter how much effort is put into it to minimize it. It's my opinion, but if a designer puts a no-holds-barred constraint on the 'musicality spec' as you put it then, no doubt, other things such as displacement become secodary.
So feel free to agree with whomever you wish, that's your choice.
Brendon
Brendon,
I'm not offended by your opinion at all. If anything, I commend you for sincerely expressing what you think is best for David. However, when you said the Tumult was a driver based heavily in the car audio tradition where low distortion isn't a priority, I quickly took it upon myself to set forth the opposite viewpoint.
The specification I like best about the Tumult is its flat BL curve.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf
I'm of course aware that this is taken directly from Adire's website, but its claims of the highest output at low distortion are also corroborated by independent sources, one of whom I've already referenced.
If you're not familiar with what the Tumult is built for, I suggest you read through the thread that brought it about:
The "designing the perfect subwoofer driver" thread...
The Tumult had two primary design goals:
1) High output
2) Small box
As you're no doubt aware of, Hoffman's wondrous Law precludes high efficiency, small box subwoofers - an acknowledged design tradeoff. As David has mentioned, he owns a powerful amp, and is just another reason why the Tumult should be on his short list of powerful subwoofers.
From what Dan has said, I doubt the excursion limits are the primary factor in its development. He has somewhere mentioned he has drivers in the lab capable of 50-70 mm of linear travel. If I were in Dan's shoes, I'd imagine the most important driver design objective was to first keep distortion low, then add output as necessary - that's the way he operates.
What do you mean by musicality? It's perhaps the most nebulous of tired audiophile generalizations. I would instead refer to low distortion and low group delay at the intended output, but that's just me.
I do agree with your outside the box approach. Sealed and bass reflex aren't the only ways to go, but they are perhaps the simplest.
David,
Rod Elliot has an excellent article on the LT and what it does.
http://sound.westhost.com/linkwitz-transform.htm
I'd read through it first, then decide whether you need a vented or PRed box.
I'm not offended by your opinion at all. If anything, I commend you for sincerely expressing what you think is best for David. However, when you said the Tumult was a driver based heavily in the car audio tradition where low distortion isn't a priority, I quickly took it upon myself to set forth the opposite viewpoint.
The specification I like best about the Tumult is its flat BL curve.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/XBL2TechPaper.pdf
I'm of course aware that this is taken directly from Adire's website, but its claims of the highest output at low distortion are also corroborated by independent sources, one of whom I've already referenced.
If you're not familiar with what the Tumult is built for, I suggest you read through the thread that brought it about:
The "designing the perfect subwoofer driver" thread...
The Tumult had two primary design goals:
1) High output
2) Small box
As you're no doubt aware of, Hoffman's wondrous Law precludes high efficiency, small box subwoofers - an acknowledged design tradeoff. As David has mentioned, he owns a powerful amp, and is just another reason why the Tumult should be on his short list of powerful subwoofers.
From what Dan has said, I doubt the excursion limits are the primary factor in its development. He has somewhere mentioned he has drivers in the lab capable of 50-70 mm of linear travel. If I were in Dan's shoes, I'd imagine the most important driver design objective was to first keep distortion low, then add output as necessary - that's the way he operates.
What do you mean by musicality? It's perhaps the most nebulous of tired audiophile generalizations. I would instead refer to low distortion and low group delay at the intended output, but that's just me.
I do agree with your outside the box approach. Sealed and bass reflex aren't the only ways to go, but they are perhaps the simplest.
David,
Rod Elliot has an excellent article on the LT and what it does.
http://sound.westhost.com/linkwitz-transform.htm
I'd read through it first, then decide whether you need a vented or PRed box.
I had a chance to hear the Tumult at the CES. I believe it was David Hyre that gave me the grand tour (you see his hands in my photos of the CES at WWW.roddyama.com ) of their display. Many thanks to Adire Audio for the time they gave to me while I was there.
One thing is clear. The Tumult has the capability to quite literally rock the house. The XBL^2 motor technology sounds good in theory. For an HT sub I’m sure you can’t go wrong with this driver. There is one shortcoming with this driver which is the 87db/w/m sensitivity. This will require some power to reach those HT SPL’s.
I can’t tell you of its musicality as I really didn’t get a chance to do any real listening. Besides, setting a sub up for music playback is 40% sub and 60% room. You have your 40% sub with the Tumult, no doubt.
Ported would make me nervous with a 15” driver capable of nearly 3” of P-t-P excursion. That’s a lot of Vd. I would even be concerned with passive radiators unless you were to go with multiple 18” PR’s. If I had the power, I guess I would lean toward TL, possibly one of those quarter length versions.
Rodd Yamashita
One thing is clear. The Tumult has the capability to quite literally rock the house. The XBL^2 motor technology sounds good in theory. For an HT sub I’m sure you can’t go wrong with this driver. There is one shortcoming with this driver which is the 87db/w/m sensitivity. This will require some power to reach those HT SPL’s.
I can’t tell you of its musicality as I really didn’t get a chance to do any real listening. Besides, setting a sub up for music playback is 40% sub and 60% room. You have your 40% sub with the Tumult, no doubt.
Ported would make me nervous with a 15” driver capable of nearly 3” of P-t-P excursion. That’s a lot of Vd. I would even be concerned with passive radiators unless you were to go with multiple 18” PR’s. If I had the power, I guess I would lean toward TL, possibly one of those quarter length versions.
Rodd Yamashita
Not to discount this wonderful forum, it did start me into DIY audio, but I suggest checking out the DIY section at
www.hometheaterforum.com.
That is where the construction thread on the Tumult began. I think one or two people there also have their drivers and have built the subs. I would recommend seaching the forum for tumult first because some of your questions could be answered there without having to start another thread.
Here is a thread where someone has one: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?threadid=120296&highlight=tumult
So far it seems that a 24" cube with two 18" PRs works well. Just by modeling it I would probably go with 60 liters sealed. I think you would probably have to addon a Linkwitz Transform circuit to get the best results. The other audio gurus in the form would better be able to explain it. I hate using these words but; this would probably give you the "tightest" more "musical" bass you want.
Just my 2 cents. Now if only I could afford one of them
Cheers
Jeremy Hopkins
www.hometheaterforum.com.
That is where the construction thread on the Tumult began. I think one or two people there also have their drivers and have built the subs. I would recommend seaching the forum for tumult first because some of your questions could be answered there without having to start another thread.
Here is a thread where someone has one: http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?threadid=120296&highlight=tumult
So far it seems that a 24" cube with two 18" PRs works well. Just by modeling it I would probably go with 60 liters sealed. I think you would probably have to addon a Linkwitz Transform circuit to get the best results. The other audio gurus in the form would better be able to explain it. I hate using these words but; this would probably give you the "tightest" more "musical" bass you want.
Just my 2 cents. Now if only I could afford one of them
Cheers
Jeremy Hopkins
David,
Is the 4 ft³ box sealed? It seems a little big to me - 3-3.5 ft³ heavily stuffed seems ideal without EQ, 2-3 ft³ with an LT.
Rod Elliot sells LT PCBs and schematics, but you'd have to assemble the circuitry and add a power supply as well. I don't know of anyone who sells pre-built LTs, but I know there was once a group buy at the Home Theater forum.
Every driver loses some of its maximum excursion when firing down, but whether this loss is negligible depends on the driver.
http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/driver_orientation.htm
I prefer front firing subs in almost every case, but as far as I know, the Tumult works firing down.
Is the 4 ft³ box sealed? It seems a little big to me - 3-3.5 ft³ heavily stuffed seems ideal without EQ, 2-3 ft³ with an LT.
Rod Elliot sells LT PCBs and schematics, but you'd have to assemble the circuitry and add a power supply as well. I don't know of anyone who sells pre-built LTs, but I know there was once a group buy at the Home Theater forum.
Every driver loses some of its maximum excursion when firing down, but whether this loss is negligible depends on the driver.
http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/driver_orientation.htm
I prefer front firing subs in almost every case, but as far as I know, the Tumult works firing down.
Tumult
I'm not sure if you have bought your Tumult yet or not, but after reading everyones response to your post, I'd thought I would throw in my two cents.... I've been building subwoofers, amplifiers, and full range speakers for a long time. One aspect that I think is important to remember is that a completed speaker's sound is about 99% box alignment, build quality, and x-overs. I have built a bunch of subs using "car audio" drivers (higher Fs, very small Vas, high xmax) and have been extremely succesfull. I built a subwoofer using a pair of Alpine 1541D subs that smoked just about anything I heard you could buy for at least $2000, in SQ and output. I don't pay attention to anything that states a sub is for car, home, or HT. It's all the way you implement them. I've used everything from 24" Hartleys to pro-audio drivers to focal subs to "car audio" drivers. It has always ended up being the box design that determains almost all the sonic quality. I have used Adire products. They work great for me. I have a few of thier Brahma subs, and a Maelstrom in my house. I just bought a pair of thier Tumults. I think if you fool around with the alignment enough you can get almost any sub to sound the way YOU think it should. I bought the pair of Tumults because I know I will be able to get them to sound good... Having 10 liters of displacement on tap is also pretty trick....
I'm not sure if you have bought your Tumult yet or not, but after reading everyones response to your post, I'd thought I would throw in my two cents.... I've been building subwoofers, amplifiers, and full range speakers for a long time. One aspect that I think is important to remember is that a completed speaker's sound is about 99% box alignment, build quality, and x-overs. I have built a bunch of subs using "car audio" drivers (higher Fs, very small Vas, high xmax) and have been extremely succesfull. I built a subwoofer using a pair of Alpine 1541D subs that smoked just about anything I heard you could buy for at least $2000, in SQ and output. I don't pay attention to anything that states a sub is for car, home, or HT. It's all the way you implement them. I've used everything from 24" Hartleys to pro-audio drivers to focal subs to "car audio" drivers. It has always ended up being the box design that determains almost all the sonic quality. I have used Adire products. They work great for me. I have a few of thier Brahma subs, and a Maelstrom in my house. I just bought a pair of thier Tumults. I think if you fool around with the alignment enough you can get almost any sub to sound the way YOU think it should. I bought the pair of Tumults because I know I will be able to get them to sound good... Having 10 liters of displacement on tap is also pretty trick....
I may come off like an apologist for Adire but I find the comparison of the Tumult to car drivers off the mark. I'm sure the Tumult would work fine in many applications but it's a step above the typical high Fs, low Xmax car sub. The biggest difference is the use of the XBL2 motor technology which is used in more than just sub drivers. Like Roddyama I too heard the Tumult in the form of the Everest subwoofer and it's a fine design and a concept worth looking into.
i agree. the tumult may not be my cup of tea
since amps are still expensive in New Zealand
-
with 28mm xmax and 3% thd ,you cant go wrong ( in theory )
exchange box size for amplifier.amps are smaller than large speaker boxes
i would prefer xbl2 over other 'magic designs'
Im sure if its not 'musical' enough its probably due to
-alignment
-room placement
etc!
since amps are still expensive in New Zealand
-
with 28mm xmax and 3% thd ,you cant go wrong ( in theory )
exchange box size for amplifier.amps are smaller than large speaker boxes
i would prefer xbl2 over other 'magic designs'
Im sure if its not 'musical' enough its probably due to
-alignment
-room placement
etc!
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