Hi,
Why can't audiophiles say that a power opamp sounds good because it is a well designed IC? Why must it be tarted up with esoteric resistors and caps, inverting configurations, and separate power humpties before people will say they sound good? The reason that our power opamp audio amplifiers sound good is because of years of science and engineering, and by good design and implementation by teams of engineers National, TI, and others. We're all just craftsmen putting them in various boxes. The sound was there already.
There are some really good and creative craftsmen that have built these amps judging from personal web pages and the gallery at Nuuk's site. Why can't you just be proud of that aspect of your work and leave it there?
You could bang on one of these things (gently) with a hammer directly on the case of the amp chip, and not even see a scope trace budge. How could oak v. maple possibly make a difference?
Why can't audiophiles be honest and just say that wood cases, machined metal parts, and ....tubes look cool and are fun to show their friends. Why do they always have to invoke some sort of miraculous sonic benefit?
You can't hear a difference between a wood and maple case or an amp suspended by a single madagascarian silk fiber in a vacuum. You just can't. 2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.
There was a previous thread where some people new to the hobby were wondering about whether or not things like different types of wood in cases would make a difference. My advice is to get a basic electronics book like "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. If you run across something in the audiophile world that's not mentioned in there, it almost certainly B.S. Audio electronics are no different than any other type of electronics.
The problem of power amplification for the home is sussed. You can get a chip and with a PS and a few resistors and caps, you can have as good of a sound from your amp up to 100W as anybody. Yes, even your friend with the Krell, and especially your friend with the SET amp
G
Why can't audiophiles say that a power opamp sounds good because it is a well designed IC? Why must it be tarted up with esoteric resistors and caps, inverting configurations, and separate power humpties before people will say they sound good? The reason that our power opamp audio amplifiers sound good is because of years of science and engineering, and by good design and implementation by teams of engineers National, TI, and others. We're all just craftsmen putting them in various boxes. The sound was there already.
There are some really good and creative craftsmen that have built these amps judging from personal web pages and the gallery at Nuuk's site. Why can't you just be proud of that aspect of your work and leave it there?
You could bang on one of these things (gently) with a hammer directly on the case of the amp chip, and not even see a scope trace budge. How could oak v. maple possibly make a difference?
Why can't audiophiles be honest and just say that wood cases, machined metal parts, and ....tubes look cool and are fun to show their friends. Why do they always have to invoke some sort of miraculous sonic benefit?
You can't hear a difference between a wood and maple case or an amp suspended by a single madagascarian silk fiber in a vacuum. You just can't. 2 inches of hookup wire in a case or 2 feet of hookup wire in a power umbililical can't, and do not, have a "sonic signature". They just don't.
There was a previous thread where some people new to the hobby were wondering about whether or not things like different types of wood in cases would make a difference. My advice is to get a basic electronics book like "The Art of Electronics" by Horowitz and Hill. If you run across something in the audiophile world that's not mentioned in there, it almost certainly B.S. Audio electronics are no different than any other type of electronics.
The problem of power amplification for the home is sussed. You can get a chip and with a PS and a few resistors and caps, you can have as good of a sound from your amp up to 100W as anybody. Yes, even your friend with the Krell, and especially your friend with the SET amp
G
it is a very interesting and profound question.
I enjoy electronics because I like the challenges in the designing, building and debugging processes. After the amp is fully debugged and is working flawless, I usually start to disassemble it. There is no need for me to have more amps than I need and economically it is more expensive for me to build one than to buy one off the shelf.
I for one don't believe in the resistor sound, or insulation pad sound, etc. and it is silly in my book to think one can hear a pre-amp power supply being "positively grey and dynamically challenged", or that 30mm feedback length makes a sonic difference, or metal feet sound better than rubber feet, etc., unless they are proven to do so.
A lot of the times, it is human psychi (?) that is hearing all the differences. Those amps are our babies, and some of us expected to hear differences for all the time, money, sweat and love, and they got fooled by their minds.
Or they looked forward to being fooled by their minds. I have no problem with people believing that they hear the difference, but to argue for it on psudo science is another story.
I enjoy electronics because I like the challenges in the designing, building and debugging processes. After the amp is fully debugged and is working flawless, I usually start to disassemble it. There is no need for me to have more amps than I need and economically it is more expensive for me to build one than to buy one off the shelf.
I for one don't believe in the resistor sound, or insulation pad sound, etc. and it is silly in my book to think one can hear a pre-amp power supply being "positively grey and dynamically challenged", or that 30mm feedback length makes a sonic difference, or metal feet sound better than rubber feet, etc., unless they are proven to do so.
A lot of the times, it is human psychi (?) that is hearing all the differences. Those amps are our babies, and some of us expected to hear differences for all the time, money, sweat and love, and they got fooled by their minds.
Or they looked forward to being fooled by their minds. I have no problem with people believing that they hear the difference, but to argue for it on psudo science is another story.
Hi,
While I belong in the land of cynics rather than the land of believers, please let me state my case:
I am a professonal electronics engineers specialising in broadcast audio and video. As such I have heard a lot.
I lived with the same HIfi...mid range, just satisfying stuff for 12 years.
After my kids grew up, I decided to change it. The replacement sounded terrible. So I tried a few more. All sounded different, even the expensive stuff. This was an immence culture shock to someone who thought that "any idiot could design a reasonable amp".
After a lot of experimentation, I found my way back to valves (tubes).
It's a vast field out there, but there are visible markers.
Don't imagine you can solve it all by logic and analysis. If you do, then one day you'll be caught out like I was.....
Cheers,
While I belong in the land of cynics rather than the land of believers, please let me state my case:
I am a professonal electronics engineers specialising in broadcast audio and video. As such I have heard a lot.
I lived with the same HIfi...mid range, just satisfying stuff for 12 years.
After my kids grew up, I decided to change it. The replacement sounded terrible. So I tried a few more. All sounded different, even the expensive stuff. This was an immence culture shock to someone who thought that "any idiot could design a reasonable amp".
After a lot of experimentation, I found my way back to valves (tubes).
It's a vast field out there, but there are visible markers.
Don't imagine you can solve it all by logic and analysis. If you do, then one day you'll be caught out like I was.....
Cheers,
I think people just take part of their experience and apply it in places where it may not help. It's harmless, no reason to get worked up over it.
Take microphonics, for example. SMD ceramic chip capacitors are highly microphonic. So if one gets used to thinking of ones components as microphonic, one might apply that habit to a project where it makes no sense. But again, it doesn't hurt.
Take microphonics, for example. SMD ceramic chip capacitors are highly microphonic. So if one gets used to thinking of ones components as microphonic, one might apply that habit to a project where it makes no sense. But again, it doesn't hurt.
The Overture series of ICs are really well made, anyone that compared them to older amp chips will tell you that, they're much better.
But this is a DIY forum, I guess many people want to atribute the good sound to their efforts and not to whomever designed the IC.
Although, the inverted topology does sound better, but there have been MANY threads discussing that, I reccomend you read through them.
But this is a DIY forum, I guess many people want to atribute the good sound to their efforts and not to whomever designed the IC.
Although, the inverted topology does sound better, but there have been MANY threads discussing that, I reccomend you read through them.
So what's the problem ?
If someone thinks that mounting his amp on a 1000 year-old rare Japanese tree wood makes it sound better and is willing to pay $10000 for it, let him. Its good for the economy (the seller's at least). Whatever makes people happy I say.
You're taking things too seriously, really. I just read this stuff, discard what I know from education is BS and try to learn from those who actualy know what they're doing. But I must tell ya, many times the best (fun) reading comes from the BS pile
Hey, maybe someone should start a thread about the top100 audio-BS. Here let me start:
Numero Uno: bi-wiring
Take care,
Guilherme.
If someone thinks that mounting his amp on a 1000 year-old rare Japanese tree wood makes it sound better and is willing to pay $10000 for it, let him. Its good for the economy (the seller's at least). Whatever makes people happy I say.
You're taking things too seriously, really. I just read this stuff, discard what I know from education is BS and try to learn from those who actualy know what they're doing. But I must tell ya, many times the best (fun) reading comes from the BS pile
Hey, maybe someone should start a thread about the top100 audio-BS. Here let me start:
Numero Uno: bi-wiring
Take care,
Guilherme.
seangoesbonk said:
Lol
nice one dude,Yeah i think that everyone is different, how people percive minor changes to an amp etc are going to vary from person to person, and to be quite frank let them!
Personally i am really happy that i cant tell the difference between tiny changes in amps, means im less fussy and dont worry about things too much, but really this is a case of live and let live
Well thats my thoughts on the topic
Personally, i care for looks almost as much as the sound. In fact, i've always had a pretty good idea on how i want something to look like long before touching a solder gun, and spend quite a lot of time on paper to know exactly how to arrange things how i like. For example, right now i'm in the final stages of a DoZ for headphones, which is a small steel box with a cooper front. I had to do a LOT of thinkering to fit two boards, a sink, a transformer and all the connectors in there, and i'm not even done yet.
Still, i always try to use quality parts, partially for the sonics (you won't find tantalum caps in an amp of mine ), but mainly because they're simply of better quality - this translates into longer life. OTOH, i also use a lot of recycled parts... this DoZ uses some poly caps and connectors from broken computer PSUs, and that's just the amp board itself.
Still, i always try to use quality parts, partially for the sonics (you won't find tantalum caps in an amp of mine
), but mainly because they're simply of better quality - this translates into longer life. OTOH, i also use a lot of recycled parts... this DoZ uses some poly caps and connectors from broken computer PSUs, and that's just the amp board itself.Gerontius said:
Oak and maple have different mechanical properties, if excited by an impulse waveform, would they vibrate differently? If so, would they damp differently? Would they sound be different? Is it possible that the sound in a room could cause the case of the amplifier to vibrate? If so, would this blend in a good or bad way with the sound of the speakers?
Silk suspended amp... ...could sounds in the music excite the silk string, causing vibration? Thus exciting other sounds?
I have seen where the length of a wire changing by more than a few inches caused a device to operate or not. Could inductance by the added length of wire, or resistance change the circuit enough to cause instability? Would poor PSRR combined with wire layout cause feedback? Could this feedback be damped, where it would only cause a damped oscillation, adding the spectrical content with only high slew rate signals and not pure tones. Would this sound differently, depending on the music?
Horowitz and Hill page 712 address care about cables for a digital system. (If a computer cares about crosstalk in a cable, I would think an analog amplifer would care even more!)
I have seen circuit boards, with different layouts operate differently, even when they contained the exact same circuit.
Why is this, after all the IC's were identical, and the designers made them to be the best they could be!The "The Art of Electronics" is just that, and Art. Not an exact science. As much design goes into a good board layout, and good cabinet design, as does a good circuit design.
The point is, it's good to be skeptical, but it's also good to keep an open mind. If it sounds like B.S., take it with a grain of salt, but don't dismiss the idea completely. Ask yourself some quesitons. How?, Why?, What if? You may be surprised.
Food for thought!
-Dan
P.S. Anyone every build the same speaker cabined out of solid wood, vs particle board and compared the sound?
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.