Folks, I have not been here for long, and I don't know everything that has been discussed. Still, just because a certain brand of resistor works in one location, does not mean that it works everywhere, sonically. I don't know why, but this understanding works for me. I would back off on any application that you don't know, and have not tried personally. It just wastes time to come to a conclusion in advance. I hope this helps.
Folks, I have not been here for long, and I don't know everything that has been discussed. Still, just because a certain brand of resistor works in one location, does not mean that it works everywhere, sonically. I don't know why, but this understanding works for me. I would back off on any application that you don't know, and have not tried personally. It just wastes time to come to a conclusion in advance. I hope this helps.
Hi. the point I was trying to make I started this discussion would be that every resistor works everywhere sonically. Unless it's really messed up, a resistor isn't going to add any audible character to the sound on it's own.
I would never want anyone to stop having fun building and listening to their creations. I like to use "nice" parts too where aesthetics and durabilitiy are an issue. I just think this mass delusion that is audio needs to be questioned every now and then.
I know that you can spend your money any way you want, but I wonder if you ever found a listening test that showed you that your $1,000 amp sounded indistinguishable from a cheap sony, would you feel cheated? Assuming that you bought the expensive amp mainly because of the sound that you perceived at the time
Hi. the point I was trying to make I started this discussion would be that every resistor works everywhere sonically. Unless it's really messed up, a resistor isn't going to add any audible character to the sound on it's own.
I would never want anyone to stop having fun building and listening to their creations. I like to use "nice" parts too where aesthetics and durabilitiy are an issue. I just think this mass delusion that is audio needs to be questioned every now and then.
I know that you can spend your money any way you want, but I wonder if you ever found a listening test that showed you that your $1,000 amp sounded indistinguishable from a cheap sony, would you feel cheated? Assuming that you bought the expensive amp mainly because of the sound that you perceived at the time
Gerontius said:
Have you built an inverted GC and compared these things? It's not very expensive and would give you some credibility...versus your blanket statements.
...but every two weeks?
Personally, I'm wary of anyone who tosses around the term "delusion". They may just be suffering from the same symptoms.
Music isn't about listening tests and DIY isn't about buying expensive amps.
My suggestion is to just build one.Its cheap and easy, use lower cost components and an established design.Then after a proper burn in ( i suggest about 48 hrs.) do an A/B comparision to a known amp.If you cant hear a difference then stick with your regular amp.
My dad is in his 80s and is not an audio type and can hear the difference between a marantz 2230 a PP 6bq5 tube amp and the GC.He perfers the GC.
ron
My dad is in his 80s and is not an audio type and can hear the difference between a marantz 2230 a PP 6bq5 tube amp and the GC.He perfers the GC.
ron
Gerontius, not meaning to be disrespectful, but if you are so sure that all this audiophile tweaking is hogwash, then why do you bother arguing? who are you trying to convince here? in all honesty, if you are going to insist on your assumptions, then you are really preaching in the wrong place.
i find this example ironic, as that's exactly what many people have done with the gainclone...
how about this. my girlfriend is not an audiophile. she plays the oboe, very well in fact (we met in orchestra at college). she has very little interest in my "geeky" hobbies, whether it be video games or audio. but, she knows and loves music, and while she never makes a point to sit in the "sweet spot" and intently listen to my stereo, she'll hear it while reading nearby or surfing the web on my computer. casual listening, really.
whenever i make a small "tweak" to my stereo, for instance applying damping material to a component, within 5 minutes of listening she'll make a comment. she'll describe the difference in words better than i could have even described it myself, and she'll know whether she likes it better or not. all this after listening to my system unchanged for weeks, and not being told a word about what i had done. she's not even around when i apply the tweak (my endless tinkering drives her nuts), so she really has absolutely ZERO idea anything has happened. all this from a person who is hardly an audiophile, and in fact doesn't give a damn about the gear.
i'm not saying everyone can hear these things (women have better hearing after all
), or that everyone even cares, but to summarily dismiss such phenomenon strikes me as narrowminded, to put it charitably.
i realize that i'm not adding very much to this discussion that hasn't already been said better by others, but there is something very bothersome to me about these debates. most bothersome to me personally is the lack of respect. in my culture, respect is one of the unequivocal cornerstones of all human interaction. we believe that experience breeds knowledge, and from knowledge comes wisdom. i think these are unarguable principles, regardless of culture. in these forums we are greatly priviledged to have the input from PhD engineers with a quarter century experience in the electronics field, enthusiasts who have spent immense time and expense building and listening with open minds and tireless devotion, even some of the most pre-eminent designers in the industry, men who MADE high-end audio what it is today. yet, people with far less background in the field, people who haven't even tried to wire up a circuit to test their ideas for themselves, come along and tell these same sages that they must be wrong. how does this work? i can understand the inquisitive mind trying to understand before believing, but often these nay-sayers have already made up their minds before even asking.
Gerontius, i am not trying to label you as one of these people, i am just making a grossly generalized example here. i am also not saying that people established in institution are unimpeachable authorities; there is always a place for earnest dissent and even a little revolution. but please, even if you disagree, i think a little respect would go a long way into putting the whole argument into perspective...
i apologize for the rant, i know it became rather off-topic. i just love this forum so and need to vent a little frustration once in a while.
i find this example ironic, as that's exactly what many people have done with the gainclone...
how about this. my girlfriend is not an audiophile. she plays the oboe, very well in fact (we met in orchestra at college). she has very little interest in my "geeky" hobbies, whether it be video games or audio. but, she knows and loves music, and while she never makes a point to sit in the "sweet spot" and intently listen to my stereo, she'll hear it while reading nearby or surfing the web on my computer. casual listening, really.
whenever i make a small "tweak" to my stereo, for instance applying damping material to a component, within 5 minutes of listening she'll make a comment. she'll describe the difference in words better than i could have even described it myself, and she'll know whether she likes it better or not. all this after listening to my system unchanged for weeks, and not being told a word about what i had done. she's not even around when i apply the tweak (my endless tinkering drives her nuts), so she really has absolutely ZERO idea anything has happened. all this from a person who is hardly an audiophile, and in fact doesn't give a damn about the gear.
i'm not saying everyone can hear these things (women have better hearing after all
), or that everyone even cares, but to summarily dismiss such phenomenon strikes me as narrowminded, to put it charitably.i realize that i'm not adding very much to this discussion that hasn't already been said better by others, but there is something very bothersome to me about these debates. most bothersome to me personally is the lack of respect. in my culture, respect is one of the unequivocal cornerstones of all human interaction. we believe that experience breeds knowledge, and from knowledge comes wisdom. i think these are unarguable principles, regardless of culture. in these forums we are greatly priviledged to have the input from PhD engineers with a quarter century experience in the electronics field, enthusiasts who have spent immense time and expense building and listening with open minds and tireless devotion, even some of the most pre-eminent designers in the industry, men who MADE high-end audio what it is today. yet, people with far less background in the field, people who haven't even tried to wire up a circuit to test their ideas for themselves, come along and tell these same sages that they must be wrong. how does this work? i can understand the inquisitive mind trying to understand before believing, but often these nay-sayers have already made up their minds before even asking.
Gerontius, i am not trying to label you as one of these people, i am just making a grossly generalized example here. i am also not saying that people established in institution are unimpeachable authorities; there is always a place for earnest dissent and even a little revolution. but please, even if you disagree, i think a little respect would go a long way into putting the whole argument into perspective...
i apologize for the rant, i know it became rather off-topic. i just love this forum so and need to vent a little frustration once in a while.
dorkus: Many of those "pre-eminent" people have listened with open minds and have come to the opposite conclusion. Think of Stanley Lipshitz, John Vanderkooy, Ken Kantor, Dick Greiner, Doug Self... And on the pre-eminent hobbyist end, Norm Thagard and Jan Didden.
If you have a chance, you might look up the Clever Hans effect. I always think of that when the inevitable, "my wife even heard it and she doesn't care about stereo" comes trotting out.
I can't speak for Gerontius, but I (a self-described rationalist about audio) certainly don't dismiss claims out of hand- unless they seem to violate well-established knowledge about physics and electronics AND are presented with zero valid supporting evidence. And any truly open-minded person has to be willing to abandon his beliefs when evidence disproves them or consistently fails to support them.
If you have a chance, you might look up the Clever Hans effect. I always think of that when the inevitable, "my wife even heard it and she doesn't care about stereo" comes trotting out.
I can't speak for Gerontius, but I (a self-described rationalist about audio) certainly don't dismiss claims out of hand- unless they seem to violate well-established knowledge about physics and electronics AND are presented with zero valid supporting evidence. And any truly open-minded person has to be willing to abandon his beliefs when evidence disproves them or consistently fails to support them.
Hi,
Ah...a resistor is a resistor is a resistor, right?
Some people have a lot of their so called education standing in the way of progress it seems?
Sounds like a lot of preconditiong to me.
If someone doesn't discern a difference than that's fine by me...why they have to declare this to the world is beyond me entirely.
When they start a crusade against those people who are more perceptive is just mere jealousy IMO.
All in all it's a primitive reaction akin to ; I can't understand it so it can't be.
Pretty laughable if you ask me.
Has anyone asked themselves why it's the naysayers spouting tons of agressiveness and not vice-versa?
Time and time again they've been proven wrong but they just keep on resisting, don't they?
If only they did their homework iso playing armchair psuedo-scientist?
How is it our fault that their system/hearing/brain lacks the resolution to show-up the difference between components?
Passive or active just the same?
It's oh so easy to say I've been taught this or that at college so what you say can't be true iso getting up and cross-check what's being forwarded.
Belief is a lazy anchor, isn't it?
Ah...a resistor is a resistor is a resistor, right?
Some people have a lot of their so called education standing in the way of progress it seems?
Sounds like a lot of preconditiong to me.
If someone doesn't discern a difference than that's fine by me...why they have to declare this to the world is beyond me entirely.
When they start a crusade against those people who are more perceptive is just mere jealousy IMO.
All in all it's a primitive reaction akin to ; I can't understand it so it can't be.
Pretty laughable if you ask me.
Has anyone asked themselves why it's the naysayers spouting tons of agressiveness and not vice-versa?
Time and time again they've been proven wrong but they just keep on resisting, don't they?
If only they did their homework iso playing armchair psuedo-scientist?
How is it our fault that their system/hearing/brain lacks the resolution to show-up the difference between components?
Passive or active just the same?
It's oh so easy to say I've been taught this or that at college so what you say can't be true iso getting up and cross-check what's being forwarded.
Belief is a lazy anchor, isn't it?
Belief is indeed a lazy anchor. It gets in the way of gathering evidence.
Because that's evidence, too. The only way that we know about a lot of stuff that doesn't work is that people have failed to find evidence when they do valid experiments and reported it. We also know from those experiments a whole lot of stuff that DOES work.
Because that's evidence, too. The only way that we know about a lot of stuff that doesn't work is that people have failed to find evidence when they do valid experiments and reported it. We also know from those experiments a whole lot of stuff that DOES work.
Gerontius said:
You have to be pretty brave to state this as a fact. And to me personally, it is bothersome and it shows lack of respect. Well said, Dorkus.
Now, why anybody who loves Audio and is quite sure of what he's doing, would need additional proof that what he's doing is correct? I don't see any sensible reason, unless one has doubts (or is totally ignorant). Why those doubts came into existance is quite another story
Just read through the last few pages of this thread I missed, and well quite honestly this ongoing debate on what effects and what doesn't effect sound quality is rather annoying, and I bet many members agree with me. It always starts with an innocent comment by someone saying that "using a different screw to atach your IC results in better sound" and then someone saying they don't believe in it and the argument starts.
I don't know if it changes the sound, if it does I can't notice it and I don't see how it could, but that doesn't mean it can't. The world isn't flat anymore, isn't it? But maybe an accumulation of all these things could produce a better sound that I could notice, who knows. So I do use premium chasis components (hardwood) and use the best connectors I can fine, hell I even use solid core copper wire (maybe it sounds better, I don't know, but it is easier to work with), even if it doesn't change sound quality, I stay within budget and it results in a better built project and it also looks nicer.
If you never tried it don't comment, if you have tried it and haven't heard a difference, then you've got a basis for argument (except when this happens everyone says that it's because whoever has bad hearing). If you're a PHD in physics and you know that there is no way it could happen... well a PHD doesn't mean you know everything.
I for one will keep an open mind, but I do not understand how it could change the sound by having the chasis built with a different wood, and as a human being I find it hard to accept what I don't understand and also what I don't hear. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying I don't think it does, but my opinion is just as useless as anyone elses, and no one should think that they have an opinion any less useless than another.
Maybe a moderator should start a thread about respecting other peoples opinions (I know, I should talk. I just called them all worthless, but at least I kept them all on equal ground), a member could but a moderator starting it would have more impact.
One last thing, Dorkus, I fully agree with you on a few points, but more importantly, my girlfriend also sees my "tinkering" as extremely geeky. "What did you do today baby?"... "Well, I picked up some parts and toyed with SMPS power suplies."... Where could she get that idea???
I don't know if it changes the sound, if it does I can't notice it and I don't see how it could, but that doesn't mean it can't. The world isn't flat anymore, isn't it? But maybe an accumulation of all these things could produce a better sound that I could notice, who knows. So I do use premium chasis components (hardwood) and use the best connectors I can fine, hell I even use solid core copper wire (maybe it sounds better, I don't know, but it is easier to work with), even if it doesn't change sound quality, I stay within budget and it results in a better built project and it also looks nicer.
If you never tried it don't comment, if you have tried it and haven't heard a difference, then you've got a basis for argument (except when this happens everyone says that it's because whoever has bad hearing). If you're a PHD in physics and you know that there is no way it could happen... well a PHD doesn't mean you know everything.
I for one will keep an open mind, but I do not understand how it could change the sound by having the chasis built with a different wood, and as a human being I find it hard to accept what I don't understand and also what I don't hear. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying I don't think it does, but my opinion is just as useless as anyone elses, and no one should think that they have an opinion any less useless than another.
Maybe a moderator should start a thread about respecting other peoples opinions (I know, I should talk. I just called them all worthless, but at least I kept them all on equal ground), a member could but a moderator starting it would have more impact.
One last thing, Dorkus, I fully agree with you on a few points, but more importantly, my girlfriend also sees my "tinkering" as extremely geeky. "What did you do today baby?"... "Well, I picked up some parts and toyed with SMPS power suplies."... Where could she get that idea???
JB, thanks for a thoughtful post. "Respect for others' opinions" is a thing to be greatly desired. And it has to go both ways: it's equally unacceptable when someone says, for example, "I can't hear any difference whatever when a CD is degaussed" to accuse him of being deaf, stupid, closed-minded, drunk, whatever.
I don't know about a separate thread, but certainly the mods should be setting an example. And I think we do, most of the time, anyway.
Peter, would it be more acceptable to you for someone to say. "It's unlikely that you can hear a difference between maple screws and nylon clips" rather than asserting that you simply can't?
I don't know about a separate thread, but certainly the mods should be setting an example. And I think we do, most of the time, anyway.
Peter, would it be more acceptable to you for someone to say. "It's unlikely that you can hear a difference between maple screws and nylon clips" rather than asserting that you simply can't?
Its not my belief that any one thing makes a huge difference in the performance of anything.
Look at a porshe, its many things that makes the total performance of the car, not just the engine alone or the suspension or any one factor but the total of the design and quality of the auto.
Same with the gainclone, its more than just a chip with caps and resistors its the total of the combined parts, the cab the suspension of the H/S the quality of the parts used ect ect.
I dont believe in the ultimate design of anything as there is always a better way of doing things that were not considered in an earlier design.Thats called progress.
ron
Look at a porshe, its many things that makes the total performance of the car, not just the engine alone or the suspension or any one factor but the total of the design and quality of the auto.
Same with the gainclone, its more than just a chip with caps and resistors its the total of the combined parts, the cab the suspension of the H/S the quality of the parts used ect ect.
I dont believe in the ultimate design of anything as there is always a better way of doing things that were not considered in an earlier design.Thats called progress.
ron
SY said:
It would be perfectly acceptable to me and I don't mind at all someone expressing his opinion in that way. I don't know for sure, if different wood material makes a difference, but I don't reject that possibility, only because it might seem very unlikely. I also don't want to go into argument over it, because it is not that important. I made only a suggestion, and someone who finds the importance of that, might use it and someone who doesn't find it important will dismiss it. But it's quite rude to state openly that it does not make a difference and it's quite amusing to fight over it
SY,
in many ways, i really do agree; in fact, if Stanley Lipshitz came on this forum and said, i've tried different resistors and did not hear a difference, furthermore i see no technical benefit to it, i would fully respect that opinion. just as i would respect his opinion, so i ask that others respect those of people on the other side of the coin. on a topic where there is no clear answer, mutual respect is always more constructive than confrontation. i think there is a problem when one side cannot accept that there really is no clear answer.
where i may disagree with you is in the "zero valid supporting evidence." what is "valid supporting evidence?" if you mean a spectral analysis or a THD measurement, then of course i beg to differ. i think it is naive and ultimately complacent to think that our currently level of technology and scientific knowledge is sufficient to quantify all possible phenomena relating to human perception. if you mean triple-blind tests or the like, i'm not completely convinced those sorts of tests are accurate. when it comes to the perception of sound, and more importantly music, there is so much going on at the subliminal to near-subliminal level that such tests rarely reveal much. yes i know, it sounds like the usual subjectivist cop-out, but i strongly feel the argument has some validity. you can also point out psychological effects, but if you try hard enough, you can use psychology to discount almost every aspect of human perception! and to be completely honest, i tend to feel a lot of work done in the "science" of psychology tends to be a crock, but that's just my personal opinion and has no relevance in this debate... so just scratch that last one out.
i honestly do believe that some people hear differences, and some people don't. it doesn't mean that the latter are "deaf," the former are "delusional," or any rubbish like that, it just means they hear things differently. everyone's hearing and perception is different, and no one can tell me what i'm hearing or not hearing. there simply is no way to tell what another person is perceiving, not at this moment at any rate (maybe when we get neural implants with sufficient resolution...). this makes me also very wary of those "studies" with blind listening test where only 50% of the subjects could distinguish some difference. well, maybe only 50% of the people could hear it. does that prove the difference doesn't exist, because it's pure 50/50 chance? i don't think so. we're not talking about a test where we can objectively measure the result, we're relying on human beings to tell us what the are preceiving. there just isn't a lot of precision in that kind of testing.
but, i'm no expert on any of this, so i have no desire to argue the point. i will say that i did receive a degree in electrical engineering from a well-respected university, and prior to that i was musically trained at a conservatory, so i like to think i balance my scientific and human/artistic sensibilities to the best of my ability. and above all, i try my best to maintain respect for all opinions, knowing full well that i have as much tendency as anyone to degenerate into irrational, reactionary rants. but again, respect! we live in free countries (for the most part), the internet is a place for free thought, so let's all respect each others' freedoms and keep open minds.
in many ways, i really do agree; in fact, if Stanley Lipshitz came on this forum and said, i've tried different resistors and did not hear a difference, furthermore i see no technical benefit to it, i would fully respect that opinion. just as i would respect his opinion, so i ask that others respect those of people on the other side of the coin. on a topic where there is no clear answer, mutual respect is always more constructive than confrontation. i think there is a problem when one side cannot accept that there really is no clear answer.
where i may disagree with you is in the "zero valid supporting evidence." what is "valid supporting evidence?" if you mean a spectral analysis or a THD measurement, then of course i beg to differ. i think it is naive and ultimately complacent to think that our currently level of technology and scientific knowledge is sufficient to quantify all possible phenomena relating to human perception. if you mean triple-blind tests or the like, i'm not completely convinced those sorts of tests are accurate. when it comes to the perception of sound, and more importantly music, there is so much going on at the subliminal to near-subliminal level that such tests rarely reveal much. yes i know, it sounds like the usual subjectivist cop-out, but i strongly feel the argument has some validity. you can also point out psychological effects, but if you try hard enough, you can use psychology to discount almost every aspect of human perception! and to be completely honest, i tend to feel a lot of work done in the "science" of psychology tends to be a crock, but that's just my personal opinion and has no relevance in this debate... so just scratch that last one out.
i honestly do believe that some people hear differences, and some people don't. it doesn't mean that the latter are "deaf," the former are "delusional," or any rubbish like that, it just means they hear things differently. everyone's hearing and perception is different, and no one can tell me what i'm hearing or not hearing. there simply is no way to tell what another person is perceiving, not at this moment at any rate (maybe when we get neural implants with sufficient resolution...). this makes me also very wary of those "studies" with blind listening test where only 50% of the subjects could distinguish some difference. well, maybe only 50% of the people could hear it. does that prove the difference doesn't exist, because it's pure 50/50 chance? i don't think so. we're not talking about a test where we can objectively measure the result, we're relying on human beings to tell us what the are preceiving. there just isn't a lot of precision in that kind of testing.
but, i'm no expert on any of this, so i have no desire to argue the point. i will say that i did receive a degree in electrical engineering from a well-respected university, and prior to that i was musically trained at a conservatory, so i like to think i balance my scientific and human/artistic sensibilities to the best of my ability. and above all, i try my best to maintain respect for all opinions, knowing full well that i have as much tendency as anyone to degenerate into irrational, reactionary rants. but again, respect! we live in free countries (for the most part), the internet is a place for free thought, so let's all respect each others' freedoms and keep open minds.
Peter Daniel said:
Yup. That's how I approach it as well. Does something that makes for a subjective difference do so because of an actual audible difference? Dunno. All I know is that if I get greater satisfaction from it, that's all that counts. If it turns out that something sounds better to me simply because it looks good, then here's to good looks.
But it's quite rude to state openly that it does not make a difference and it's quite amusing to fight over it
How is it any less rude to state openly that it does?
I don't think rude's a good term to describe either case.
I just think that if you're going to make an objective claim, whether FOR audibility or LACK of audibility, you should be prepared to back it up with objective evidence. If you're not prepared to do that, then don't make the claim in the first place. Simple as that.
se
dorkus said:
Yup. Whenever one asserts something as an absolute when there is ambiguity they're going to get into trouble.
So why can't we just put the absolutes aside until there is actually something absolute?
The so-called "yeasayers" have no absolute objective evidence to support their absolute claims and that lack of absolute objective evidence does not constitute absolute objective evidence in support of the absolute claims of the so-called "naysayers."
What I can't understand is why the absolutists on either side are so hell bent on shoving their dogma down everyone else's throats.
Why can't we all just be content to share our subjective experiences and leave it at that? This debate's been raging for decades now and since the "yeasayers" are never likely to get off their ***** and put their money where their mouth is and do the research which would prove their claims, there's simply nothing new to add to the debate.
It's been nothing but "Tastes great!/Less filling!" for going on 30 years now. I think it's well past time to give it a rest and just have some fun.
se
Steve Eddy said:
Yes, and this is how I also try to approach it. And this is one reason I don't make any objective claims anymore. All I do is observations and suggestions and whatever I post, it is only my personal view. You can, of course, blame me for being lazy or not carefull enough to add 'IMHO' ea. time when I do it, but then, I wouldn't find any pleasure in sharing my views anymore
.
Peter Daniel said:Yes, and this is how I also try to approach it. And this is one reason I don't make any objective claims anymore. All I do is observations and suggestions and whatever I post, it is only my personal view. You can, of course, blame me for being lazy or not carefull enough to add 'IMHO' ea. time when I do it, but then, I wouldn't find any pleasure in sharing my views anymore
Hehehe. Understood.
If someone simply says "I tried such and such and it sounded better/worse/whatever" I've no problem at all. I do the same albeit on a somewhat rare basis because I still don't feel that my subjective experiences are of much meaning to anyone else and prefer that people simply try things for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
It's only when people make assertive claims to actual audibility that they step over the line into the objective realm and need to play by objective rules.
se
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