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Old 8th January 2012, 09:43 PM   #11
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Two things I forgot to include- Dynamic loudspeakers need some type of controlled air mass behind them to control their transient response.
To offset the higher voltages involved, Walker used perforated fiberglass PC material for his LF stators. I'm guessing he had the conductive surface on the outside of the panel.
They guy to ask here is Sheldon Stokes- He repairs Quads on the side.
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Old 9th January 2012, 02:10 AM   #12
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Why???????? (I ask because I can't think of any good reason and I'm a big fan of ESLs.)

One of the oldest threads in the universe is how to match dynamic woofers and ESL speakers. I personally think there's virtually no difference among the sounds of woofers (like the silly talk about "fast" and "slow" woofers), except the really obvious differences of basic parameters, and even less so with crossovers below 140 Hz.

Dayton-Wrights play down to 50 Hz fine and provide a quite convincing bass (no kiddin'... in case there are people who don't think a clean 50 credible as a woofer). Know where to find 39 lbs transformers? Welder's gas? Sealed boxes? Mike Wright thought his speakers would be grand in movie theaters esp. in multiple sets.

Ben
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Last edited by bentoronto; 9th January 2012 at 02:13 AM.
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Old 9th January 2012, 06:37 AM   #13
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin View Post
Hi,


Yes, maybe, but certainly not with an ESL panel.
An ESL is no good bass!
...go to the black board and write this sentence down 100 times....

Try with dynamic bass drivers in dipole cabinets instead. Its easier and performs way better.

jauu
Calvin
+10...

I have heard really big ESL's and they play big bass, it is not the same as dynamic drivers and i prefer mine in enclosers thank you ..


Speed is an function of size and xover frequency, ( phasing is another) then matching is not an issue if you get them right , seamless. I had developed powered subs for My quad 63's .. no issues you couldn't tell unless i turned them off.

regards,
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Old 9th January 2012, 07:22 AM   #14
SM7UYJ is offline SM7UYJ  Sweden
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I personally admire people who do not take the easy road!

I’m running 4 x 12” dynamic woofers in H-frame my self, but would like to use ESL-elements instead.
As my panels are the size of a small doors, I have reached my WAF and going bigger would result in divorce I’m afraid!
My panels play down to 35-40Hz and at “normal” listening levels the bass they produce is the best I have ever heard.
I found that the most difficult part of producing ESL-bass was finding/winding transformers that would not saturate.

I hope you build your ESL-woofers and keep us posted on your progress!

Roger
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Old 9th January 2012, 10:40 AM   #15
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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I have Had Acoustats for years......3ea 9"w 48"L panels well give a good 35hz....great base.....you can buy these panels used for $50.ea US.....thay well 28" wide when put to gather for each side .....I think that the Acoustat best base ever....but if there ran full rang...TO ME.....the Highend is rolled down....As you would think....tradeoff....there a lot of fun...
As SM7UYJ said good luck with the Tranfourmers...the panels is not The prob.....goodluck




SM7UYJ Do you think the stepup Tranfourmers you are using can be found in the US....your ESL are the coolest i seen...
Thanks for any an all info on ESLs
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Old 9th January 2012, 11:00 AM   #16
SM7UYJ is offline SM7UYJ  Sweden
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tyu:
The oil burner ignition trafos I'm using is a Danish brand, but you should be able to find something similar in the US!

I found them at a local scrap yard and I would guess that they are 15-25 years old!

They are still sold new but at the cost of 4 x $150 there are better options!

Roger
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Old 9th January 2012, 12:20 PM   #17
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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Roger
Thanks for your time...
I have 4-5 of the Acoustat Base tranfourmers here.....an what i have found that if i just run them on panels with just 1-2ohms on the pos input an dont use the center tap on the panels side an gound the back side of the panel an one end of the winding an use the other end of the winding to drive the front of the panels it not as eze to saturate. Have you ever setup you xfourmers this way...if not why?
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Old 9th January 2012, 01:58 PM   #18
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tyu, sounds like you are driving only one stator? Non-linear if you do this.

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Old 9th January 2012, 02:46 PM   #19
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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Default On paper it looks that way....but

Forgive the Art....i have posted this in the past..i came across this with ML in 96....
An got in touch with Mr powers At ML to get more info and a schematic...
an when i got the schematic it was as you see in all there schematic... the nom. setup with the centap grounded....an one end of the winding going to the back an one going to the front of the panels..just like all ESL i had ever seen...Acoustats,Soundlab,so....i called to see what was up an was told that thay had came up with this setup to sale in UK...thay had to ground, well the neg input from the amp to the front panel...Safty.. thay even ran two wires from the same place to the same place...what i siad..thay have some panels with 4 wires... an two run to the front ....well i got to looking at the set an siad just what you have... can be right... but it work an whin i took out the setup an put in the one on the schematic from ML...i lost output??
so whin i put the SE I call it... setup back in with the back panel gronded not the front i got even more output....so then i move on to my Acoustats an it did the same thing .....;sound great an gave more output....so thin i move on to my soundLabs A3s an got the thing...great sound an more output....so i pass this on to Moray....an he look at it an tride it an it workt for him all so...

So i gess that as we no, the paper is not right all the time...
I think it helps with the mismach in the tranfourmers windings...an it stops a fulx back an forth that come with the back of the panel that has no bias feed coting...all i can say is after trying it bouth ways ...i alway endup here At whats in the art... give it a try...you can always go back!....an i have never found any one that thinks more output out of a ESL is a bad thing...
To me how it sounds is the same way a SE tube amp sounds vris a pushpull
faster an sweeter....just one mans o-pine

Thanks for your time an all years of info on esl you have given
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Old 9th January 2012, 03:56 PM   #20
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Call it just ego, but let me explain about how Dayton-Wright did it.

The speakers are a meter square and 300 cm deep.

The diaphragms are roughly across the middle, and the middle assembly holding the diaphragm panels is sealed side to side and top to bottom.

The front and back are sealed with film across the whole meter square.

The inside is filled with heavy welder's gas.

So, the diaphragms drive (1) the heavy gas and then (2) the larger external films.

A clever concept for bass and no owner I have ever talked to has complained about the rest of the range playing through the gas, etc. (The later models with the tweeter are a different story.)

Oh, did I mention the 39 lbs transformers?

Do I understand that someone has actually measured Acustats playing 35 Hz?

Ben
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