Horn loaded electrostatic ?? - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Planars & Exotics

Planars & Exotics ESL's, planars, and alternative technologies

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 1st June 2011, 06:23 AM   #1
brsanko is offline brsanko  United States
diyAudio Member
 
brsanko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Duluth, MN
Send a message via MSN to brsanko
Default Horn loaded electrostatic ??

I have been designing rear loaded and compound horns for several years now and experimenting with different drivers and observing what makes a driver well suited to a horn enclosure. The conclution I have come to is that the most important qualities are a lightweight diaphram with excellent control and damping characteristics. Which is what brought me to electrostatics. The diaphram is nearly weightless, and stiffness isn't really even an issue because the stators control the entire surface evenly. I can't help but wonder what could be done with a small circular electrostatic say 3" - 6" in diameter in a compound horn enclosure. I guess the biggest thing I'm wondering right now is how much can a electrostatic diaphram move before it gets distorted and how would one measure or determine the T/S parameters or whatever the equivalent information of such a speaker. Anyone with any information or suggestions please pitch in. I welcome information from everyone, but please don't tell me it can't be done and enumberate all the reasons it's a stupid idea. I tend to get defensive and upset by naysayers and have been banned for a few days more than once for telling people to shut up. Please feel free to contribute any facts or ideas you might have but if your goal is to tell me I'm wasting my time, don't waste yours.
__________________
PASSIONN
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2011, 06:36 AM   #2
beun is offline beun  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
I am not quite sure it would work, horn loading works by increasing the loading at the speaker and acts like an acoustic transformer. This then exchanges displacement for force. The electrostatic force is relatively week and I am not sure if you can generate enough force to make it work.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2011, 06:41 AM   #3
brsanko is offline brsanko  United States
diyAudio Member
 
brsanko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Duluth, MN
Send a message via MSN to brsanko
Well if you don't have to move it much you can make the gap relatively small and use metal foil as the diaphram if need be. I need to do some more reading on the basic principles of ESs. I'm doing that now. Thanks for the quick response.
__________________
PASSIONN
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2011, 08:43 AM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jackson,michigan
I been wanting to horn load my little panel too se how well it would work.
It has a 9.75" X 3.25" diagphram and gets extremely loud.
I run it at 5kv to 7kv bias with about 25kv p-p across the stators (maxed out).
So I have been trying figure out a horn design for it.
I don't think it would be pheasible for a wide panel but a small width one might work well.
I think it would be worth giving it a try. jer
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2011, 03:08 PM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Adelaide
A horn loaded ESL is unlikely to work for reasons discussed towards the end of this thread I started.Electrostatic AMT? Basically ES forces are too weak and the membrane motion simply stalls when loaded by anything other than free air. I wish it were otherwise, but the laws of physics are uncompromising.

Keith
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2011, 03:29 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jackson,michigan
Yes, I have been thinking about that myself.
As I have run it to issues when trying to just dampen the backwave with some fiberglass insulation and I lost a bit of detail on the high if I got to close with it as it was loading up the diagphram.
But that was in mono and might not be noticeable to much in stereo.
But if I can come up with a size and shape it would be very easy to try as I already have the drivers and driver system made.
I think that it might actualy work good for a midrange system,But I don't think it will be loud enough for PA use though.
Yet my little driver is quite powerful when running at maxed out voltages not like your average esl running at a 2kv bias.
jer

Last edited by geraldfryjr; 1st June 2011 at 03:31 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2011, 04:12 PM   #7
markusA is offline markusA  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
markusA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Gothenburg
Blog Entries: 1
It would be cool to see some experiments on this.
It could be done in several different ways I think.
Beveridge have the acoustic lens and an enclosure, Maybe one could do something similar modelled as a FLH?
It could be anything from a very narrow panel to a wide one?
A hornloaded line source sounds like fun.

Or you could keep the dipole characteristics and build it symmetrical front/back? I think I've actually seen some experiments on this but doing it without a chamber the size will get out of hand pretty quick if you widen the panel.

To bad if the laws of physica are working against us, it would've been interesting to see what could be done.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st June 2011, 04:43 PM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
bolserst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Taylor View Post
A horn loaded ESL is unlikely to work for reasons discussed towards the end of this thread I started.Electrostatic AMT? Basically ES forces are too weak and the membrane motion simply stalls when loaded by anything other than free air. I wish it were otherwise, but the laws of physics are uncompromising.

There is a way around the apparent inability of an ESL to drive a horn. The idea was published in an AES paper by Josef Merhaut.
AES E-Library Horn-Loaded Electrostatic Loudspeaker

Basically, a prisimatic waveguide is used to transfer the resistive impedance at the throat of the horn to a larger area ESL. The benefits are a purely resistive airload on the ESL diaphragm over the whole working range of the horn. The benefits are a very predictable flat response and no pronounced diaphragm resonance normally caused by the reactive air-mass loading on the diaphragm.

A few details were posted here when discussing diaphragm resonance:
Diaphragm Resonance change with HV bias

He also received a patent(US3590169) for the idea, although it doesn't contain all the technical information provided in the AES paper.
ELECTROSTATIC HORN LOUDSPEAKER - Google Patents

Last edited by bolserst; 1st June 2011 at 04:47 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2011, 06:56 AM   #9
brsanko is offline brsanko  United States
diyAudio Member
 
brsanko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Duluth, MN
Send a message via MSN to brsanko
I was thinking of making a round panel as small as possible to achieve the desired frequency extension(80Hz-20Khz would be perfect). I like the idea of loading both sides of the panel but not symetricly but rather a front horn for high frequencies and a rear horn for low frequencies (crossed over somewhere between 200-500Hz).
The other thing I was thinking about was coupling them with a tube amp and instead of putting an output transformer on it to bring down the voltage and another transformer on the speaker to bring it back up again you could direct couple it to the speaker and even use a single ended amp and the tube bias could be the diaphram bias...maybe, just thinking out loud, er... in type.
__________________
PASSIONN

Last edited by brsanko; 5th June 2011 at 06:59 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 5th June 2011, 08:10 PM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jackson,michigan
Yes I was think of some sort of asymeterical design but don't know which method yet as that will take some experimentation.

Yes you can couple the panel directly to a tube amp as it has been done ,BUT,It takes some serious voltages to get to a very large SPL.

When I pushed my panel past its limit (to the point of ignition from an arc over through a mounting bolt) I was applying in the order of 25kv p-p across the stators.

With music the average person could not be in the same room and even I could not stay in the same room with a steady sine tone.
As I am quite used to it being loud.

Sadly my SPL meter does not work otherwise I would have a figure for you to post.


jer
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Front loaded and back loaded horn DrWoofer.com Subwoofers 0 3rd August 2007 07:55 PM
rear loaded horn farriswheel Car Audio 2 27th July 2007 06:03 AM
Rear Loaded Horn David R. Carlso Full Range 3 9th January 2006 11:04 PM
Need help with horn-loaded sub slicemaster101 Multi-Way 26 17th September 2002 02:09 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:40 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2