I know these guys need to make money to but almost 600 dollars !? We can all build those for a fraction. Rather sell the transformers for a good price since that's the only price bottle neck for all of us. Pleaaaaasssee someone design a good mid/ high trannie with ratio 1/100 and I am willing to wind 25 pieces for free for the people that contribute to the buying of the needed materials. Cored/wire/bovines/insulation etc the one that design with the to be used materials will receive , 10 winded for free as well . I don't mind winding , I am just low on cash and knowledge of transformer design, i Dont mind some labour 
These panels are nice for people that don't have the tools knowledge or time to make there own , maybe then the price is right but here in this forum I guess it's overpriced insanely.
These panels are nice for people that don't have the tools knowledge or time to make there own , maybe then the price is right but here in this forum I guess it's overpriced insanely.
Well, it's about 400 euro's a pair, surely not really cheap. For someone that regularly makes these things, it's probably a no brainer. But if your new to this, you'll likely make a few mistakes, and will have to make a few prototypes before you get a good working one. You'd have to account for that cost too. Also I think it is hard to buy the materials in the quantities needed for two small panels? Could be wrong though...
Still nothing about the actual qualities of the panels in question though
Still nothing about the actual qualities of the panels in question though
Smaller panels are cheaper and easier to build than larger ones by far.
There are just a few simple rules to follow, and the biggest one is don't skimp on the Stator coating, but again that is true for any ESl build.
Electrically segemented panels are the best way to go.
But for simpilicity sake a 3"-4" wide panel ( preferable the smaller 3" wide version or even 2.5' wide) can be made to perform very well no mater what the length is for the midrange and on up.
Just remember that such a design must be used with a woofer is all.
For my very First panels I used plastic Lighting Grate (1/2" egg crate stuff ) and common Alu. window screen materail for my stators and the results I have explained many times over in these threads, in two words, Simply Amazing!!!
And cheap!!
Each 3.25"x9.75" panel didn't cost me but $5 a piece and that is having enough materail to build atleast 4 pair !!
Then my second method uses a little PCB materail, Plexiglass for the frames and some TIG rod for the stator's, another extremely inexpensive method.
WrineX used some PCB materail for his design and it turned out with some very excellent results as well.
Yes, it is a bit time consuming to manually drill all of those holes in the PCB materail but it can be done very easily and cheaply as well !!!
The highest cost of building an ESL system regardless of their size is of course the electronics to drive them, but we have that coverd pretty good in these threads as well.
It can be done for a fraction of what those ready made ones cost!!
As far as coming op with a transformer design I can help to guide you on this as I have it fiugred out pretty much.
Just let me know what size and kind of cores you can get in your area and what your lowest frequency of choice would be as well as you maximum voltage at the lowest frequency of choice as well.
If you don't mind winding them, remember the largest core you can afford to start with you will have the least amount of turns you will have to wind.
That also goes for the higher the lowest frequency is the lesser amount of turns as well.
Also a larger core will allow you to have a thicker interwinding insulation and this will help to keep your transformer capcitance down for a nice wider bandwidth and higher impedance on the higher end.
Especially when you are talking about smaller panels, where the transformers capacitance is the dominating factor.
jer
There are just a few simple rules to follow, and the biggest one is don't skimp on the Stator coating, but again that is true for any ESl build.
Electrically segemented panels are the best way to go.
But for simpilicity sake a 3"-4" wide panel ( preferable the smaller 3" wide version or even 2.5' wide) can be made to perform very well no mater what the length is for the midrange and on up.
Just remember that such a design must be used with a woofer is all.
For my very First panels I used plastic Lighting Grate (1/2" egg crate stuff ) and common Alu. window screen materail for my stators and the results I have explained many times over in these threads, in two words, Simply Amazing!!!
And cheap!!
Each 3.25"x9.75" panel didn't cost me but $5 a piece and that is having enough materail to build atleast 4 pair !!
Then my second method uses a little PCB materail, Plexiglass for the frames and some TIG rod for the stator's, another extremely inexpensive method.
WrineX used some PCB materail for his design and it turned out with some very excellent results as well.
Yes, it is a bit time consuming to manually drill all of those holes in the PCB materail but it can be done very easily and cheaply as well !!!
The highest cost of building an ESL system regardless of their size is of course the electronics to drive them, but we have that coverd pretty good in these threads as well.
It can be done for a fraction of what those ready made ones cost!!
As far as coming op with a transformer design I can help to guide you on this as I have it fiugred out pretty much.
Just let me know what size and kind of cores you can get in your area and what your lowest frequency of choice would be as well as you maximum voltage at the lowest frequency of choice as well.
If you don't mind winding them, remember the largest core you can afford to start with you will have the least amount of turns you will have to wind.
That also goes for the higher the lowest frequency is the lesser amount of turns as well.
Also a larger core will allow you to have a thicker interwinding insulation and this will help to keep your transformer capcitance down for a nice wider bandwidth and higher impedance on the higher end.
Especially when you are talking about smaller panels, where the transformers capacitance is the dominating factor.
jer
Last edited:
Thx Gerald! And Yes 4 real you might be right ! Usually it will cost some money to get what you want.
And Gerald about the winding , I see allot of simple ei transformers that work pretty ok also small c cores . I personally am looking for insane cheap from 300 ha to 20khz. As a basic trannie. It will fit most Diy needs ofc it's not the best. Ah well cheapest way would be contacting a Chinese company I guess. I just can believe that the transformers used in every cinercial esl is such s huge factor of the production price . it limits the use of a esl in affordable hybrid esls
And Gerald about the winding , I see allot of simple ei transformers that work pretty ok also small c cores . I personally am looking for insane cheap from 300 ha to 20khz. As a basic trannie. It will fit most Diy needs ofc it's not the best. Ah well cheapest way would be contacting a Chinese company I guess. I just can believe that the transformers used in every cinercial esl is such s huge factor of the production price .
it limits the use of a esl in affordable hybrid esls
Thanks Jer for the good insights! You know, you guys here unintentionally throw up a huge barrier for us noobs: the projects I see here are at quite a high level of craftmanship! You guys really seem to know what you are doing. The prospect of matching that is quite daunting
Your spirt is quite infectious though, I'll look into ways of making some panels myself
Your spirt is quite infectious though, I'll look into ways of making some panels myself
You mention the frequency bandwidth of interest, but to determine the tranformer design you also need to define the maximum load capacitance. The typical size of an unsegmented hybrid ESL panel is 12" x 48"(30.5cm x 122cm) with D/S = 1/16" (1.6mm) has a capacitance of around 1200pF. Is that what you had in mind?
What is the smallest gauge wire you can wind perfect layers? Can you handle #36 AWG magnet wire?
Also do you have access to 2μm mylar insulation tape? and are you able to include specified layers of insulation tape between each layer of the secondary?
If so, a fairly straightforward 80:1 transformer design could be wound with SU60b core and dual bobbins for driving 1200pF.
Thx bolsert ! usefull as always!
Well the 36 awg, i winded 0.3 mm so far, halving that would be possible i guess when i wind a bit slower, but must admit never tried it. i can understand that it might be a pain in the ***
I always used Nomex as insulation layers. between every layer.
Only thing i thought about today is that i might be moving to another city. the current winding machine is on loan. and there might be a possibility i have to return it. (i guess so) but not all is lost. since i know a few things about cnc , i could make a new machine for just winding. although this might be a more future project.
Bolsert i was thinking about diving into my stacked esl once more, so it wont be such huge panel. so capacitance will be allot lower. i thought about maybe halve the one you are using as example. to make a mid high frequency unit that can work with big woofers.
by the way does d/s spacing matter to the capacitance ? also it will be slightly segmented.
a tweeter is also still an option unsigmented ofcourse, but that would be resulting in almost no capacitance. lets say diameter of 5 cm times 4-6 menbrames. (not possible on my older version but waiting on materials to try something new)
Well the 36 awg, i winded 0.3 mm so far, halving that would be possible i guess when i wind a bit slower, but must admit never tried it. i can understand that it might be a pain in the ***
I always used Nomex as insulation layers. between every layer.
Only thing i thought about today is that i might be moving to another city. the current winding machine is on loan. and there might be a possibility i have to return it. (i guess so) but not all is lost. since i know a few things about cnc , i could make a new machine for just winding. although this might be a more future project.
Bolsert i was thinking about diving into my stacked esl once more, so it wont be such huge panel. so capacitance will be allot lower. i thought about maybe halve the one you are using as example. to make a mid high frequency unit that can work with big woofers.
by the way does d/s spacing matter to the capacitance ? also it will be slightly segmented.
a tweeter is also still an option unsigmented ofcourse, but that would be resulting in almost no capacitance. lets say diameter of 5 cm times 4-6 menbrames. (not possible on my older version but waiting on materials to try something new)
Yes, capacitance increase linearly with increasing area and decreasing D/S.
ESL capacitance calculation
With stacked ESLs, capacitance increases linearly with number of diaphragms stacked.
Unfortunately, the design of a step-up transformer is greatly dependent on the load you are wanting to drive. A one-size-fits-most transformer for hybrids will be a compromise in HF and LF bandwidth, and also will be more a more difficult load for the amplifier than if the transformer is optimized for the load it will drive.
Once you have moved and are ready to wind, send me a PM and we can work out details for a transformer that will be useful for your ESLs and not be too challenging to wind.
OOoh wow nice Bolsert! Thank you very much ! i will definitely come back on the subject. since this is my biggest hurdle. the rest i can make prototypes and test, but transform design is way out of my league.
Looks like i got another project on my list.. new winding machine.
i will first dive into the stacked esl to get a feel what i am aiming for andwhat the load might be!Thanks in advance Bolsert! helpful as always !
Not sure if anyone is still following this thread, but I'm still settling on driver matching , and configuration.
I've mostly settled on Alpair 12PWs for midbass duty, (but may change this to a cardioid RSS265HF-4 for midbass, mounted above another in a sealed cabinet) bypassed the high pass capacitor,and am using an active 2 way analogue crossover, 4th order, preceded by a digital preamp crossover to a sub.
Crossover points are 2nd order at 90 hertz, and 300 hertz, 4th order.
200 hertz sounded a little thread bare for these panels.
I prefer these to the horns, planars, full range, and conventional driver projects I've done in the past.
Can't seem to make the treble "crisp" or "etched" on any music so far; I find that a good thing.
I went to kit form for the reasons others have mentioned- no skill at fabricating from scratch.
In light of near plug and play convenience, no abandoned prototypes, and being able to stick to my woodworking comfort zone, I find the kit to be acceptable value.
I've mostly settled on Alpair 12PWs for midbass duty, (but may change this to a cardioid RSS265HF-4 for midbass, mounted above another in a sealed cabinet) bypassed the high pass capacitor,and am using an active 2 way analogue crossover, 4th order, preceded by a digital preamp crossover to a sub.
Crossover points are 2nd order at 90 hertz, and 300 hertz, 4th order.
200 hertz sounded a little thread bare for these panels.
I prefer these to the horns, planars, full range, and conventional driver projects I've done in the past.
Can't seem to make the treble "crisp" or "etched" on any music so far; I find that a good thing.
I went to kit form for the reasons others have mentioned- no skill at fabricating from scratch.
In light of near plug and play convenience, no abandoned prototypes, and being able to stick to my woodworking comfort zone, I find the kit to be acceptable value.
Last edited:
Nice report on the minipanels. Do you use single or double panels on each side?
What kind of drivers have you used before (AMT, Neo etc.)? And can you describe the difference in sound?
I think that's an inherent quality of ESL's. I've never heard one that sounded harsh or distorted except for a Quad that was clipping at high volume.
What kind of drivers have you used before (AMT, Neo etc.)? And can you describe the difference in sound?
I think that's an inherent quality of ESL's. I've never heard one that sounded harsh or distorted except for a Quad that was clipping at high volume.
They have three vertical sections, here's what Rob from ER Audio wrote:
The HF section is 30mm wide, there is a non conductive boundary approx 3.5mm between the centre and side sections. The conductive width of the side sections is 43mm.
The active width (between the inner edge of the spacers) is 132mm, the active length is 487mm the actual conductive surface is 480mm long.
The air gap is 1mm
The HF section is 30mm wide, there is a non conductive boundary approx 3.5mm between the centre and side sections. The conductive width of the side sections is 43mm.
The active width (between the inner edge of the spacers) is 132mm, the active length is 487mm the actual conductive surface is 480mm long.
The air gap is 1mm
I did not know...or had not thought about it...but on Robs site he states that his coating he sales now if left unmix with water ...it gives all -better HF!
I now get how the Acoustat full rang panels can give the great Hf an sill have bass in the 30-40 hz.s....
as with most things-people on this great Diyaudio site always new info..well for me anyway..thanks for this info
I now get how the Acoustat full rang panels can give the great Hf an sill have bass in the 30-40 hz.s....
as with most things-people on this great Diyaudio site always new info..well for me anyway..thanks for this info
Well Rob states .....on his site
Conductive Coating - Re formulated for easier application
Our Clear conductive coating is available again after a long period of being out of stock
coating is supplied as a concentrate and should be diluted with distilled water unless you require a low surface resistivity for high frequency only reproduction. Surface resistivity is typically around 200 megohms/sq but can be varied by dilution and gauge of application. Supplied as a concentrate to be diluted from 1:0.5 to 1:1 with distilled water. Typical coverage is 1.0 ml per 900 sq cm (1 square foot)
When we look at the Acoustat coating.... that was made by Ampex, so I have read...Black magnetic audio tape coating ...An hand panted on the Mylar with a brush....you can not see lite through it.....last a long long time over 30 years....hehe still going strong
Conductive Coating - Re formulated for easier application
Our Clear conductive coating is available again after a long period of being out of stock
coating is supplied as a concentrate and should be diluted with distilled water unless you require a low surface resistivity for high frequency only reproduction. Surface resistivity is typically around 200 megohms/sq but can be varied by dilution and gauge of application. Supplied as a concentrate to be diluted from 1:0.5 to 1:1 with distilled water. Typical coverage is 1.0 ml per 900 sq cm (1 square foot)
When we look at the Acoustat coating.... that was made by Ampex, so I have read...Black magnetic audio tape coating ...An hand panted on the Mylar with a brush....you can not see lite through it.....last a long long time over 30 years....hehe still going strong
Last edited:
Crossover point(s) is a very important question with many factors playing a part in the decision.
But many of us were first astounded by ESL sound in the 60s listening to Jantzen tweeters coming in at 1000 Hz with a single AR-like sealed box woofer below. Doesn't sound like a speaker likely to astound, but it surely did so even just handling those upper 3-4 octaves and an odd crossover point in the middle of all instruments.
Ben
But many of us were first astounded by ESL sound in the 60s listening to Jantzen tweeters coming in at 1000 Hz with a single AR-like sealed box woofer below. Doesn't sound like a speaker likely to astound, but it surely did so even just handling those upper 3-4 octaves and an odd crossover point in the middle of all instruments.
Ben
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.