GoatGuy, very interesting tool indeed.
Some years ago I hacked a trivial shell script to ABX linux playback configurations Tool for A/B Testing | Blog IVITERA a.s. I believe I have been the only user
Some years ago I hacked a trivial shell script to ABX linux playback configurations Tool for A/B Testing | Blog IVITERA a.s. I believe I have been the only user
Lowtherdream, I appear to have started from a position not dissimilar to yours. I had a pc connected to a dac via a USB cable I got free with a printer (back when printer manufacturers gave them away). I was quite content
I then saw that a shop in town had audio quest USB cables for sale at various levels of exorbitant prices. I thought I'd have some fun so I went in and went through "it's just 1s and 0s" story with the guy in the shop. He listened and then said, borrow a cable for the weekend.
I got home and tried it out. It was around 100 gb pounds for the cable but plugging it in significantly improved the space around the instruments and the air/texture in the music I was listening to. I thought I was going mad but got the other half in and sat her down. She preferred the new cable. I called my father in law and bro in law over and the concurred (blind listening). So I bought it and since then I've upgraded to one twice the price.
I've also built my own LAN cable and my own SATA cable which have also garnered praise from family members. Members here (and elsewhere, journos) have been burnt at the stake for even suggesting that a humble SATA cable might make a difference to the sound. Do I know why I think it does? No. It seems particularly bonkers given that everything on my setup is played directly from RAM. Am I interested in why it makes a difference? Yes, but not as interested as I am in the difference itself.
The lesson I learnt was that even though there is lots of science to 'prove' that this is all bollox etc etc, it doesn't really matter...your ears are the only things that count...oh and the bank balance. DIY...it's the way forward!
I then saw that a shop in town had audio quest USB cables for sale at various levels of exorbitant prices. I thought I'd have some fun so I went in and went through "it's just 1s and 0s" story with the guy in the shop. He listened and then said, borrow a cable for the weekend.
I got home and tried it out. It was around 100 gb pounds for the cable but plugging it in significantly improved the space around the instruments and the air/texture in the music I was listening to. I thought I was going mad but got the other half in and sat her down. She preferred the new cable. I called my father in law and bro in law over and the concurred (blind listening). So I bought it and since then I've upgraded to one twice the price.
I've also built my own LAN cable and my own SATA cable which have also garnered praise from family members. Members here (and elsewhere, journos) have been burnt at the stake for even suggesting that a humble SATA cable might make a difference to the sound. Do I know why I think it does? No. It seems particularly bonkers given that everything on my setup is played directly from RAM. Am I interested in why it makes a difference? Yes, but not as interested as I am in the difference itself.
The lesson I learnt was that even though there is lots of science to 'prove' that this is all bollox etc etc, it doesn't really matter...your ears are the only things that count...oh and the bank balance. DIY...it's the way forward!
Very true. The double blind test can only confirm or not confirm hypothesis that two scenarios sound different to the listeners taking the test. Actually that would suffice in this case.
Its a pity cos it would help, though in the above case, I would suspect that there was somthing wrong with the cheap give away cable, if differences were so great. The other problem is the level of equipement neaded to get the various measurements required. It may be worth a thread on basic PC add on measurement devices that the common or garden DIYer could afford, and what could be achieved with them.
I wonder how prints come out like with the different cables?
I wonder how prints come out like with the different cables?
Don't get me wrong folks, I'm all for empirical data where possible and in fact I bought an old scope to try to do just that. I'm currently trying to get the hang of it so if someone fancies showing me what to measure and in this instance how to measure it then I'm happy to help.
I also tested a couple of free/v cheap USB cables as I too thought one was faulty. No difference between the two. Clearly there was little scientific rigour in my testing and it was of course completely subjective but at least there was an attempt to remove bias. The exercise demonstrated to me that I wasn't going mad and that there was a difference (and more importantly an improvement with one cable over another) and that was the point of that exercise.
I laughed out loud when I read the line 'I wonder how prints come out with difference cables'. What a ridiculous thing to say...but of course you're right, if I'm banging on about cables making a difference then maybe it's true...Mario Testino uses solid silver printer cables!!
I also tested a couple of free/v cheap USB cables as I too thought one was faulty. No difference between the two. Clearly there was little scientific rigour in my testing and it was of course completely subjective but at least there was an attempt to remove bias. The exercise demonstrated to me that I wasn't going mad and that there was a difference (and more importantly an improvement with one cable over another) and that was the point of that exercise.
I laughed out loud when I read the line 'I wonder how prints come out with difference cables'. What a ridiculous thing to say...but of course you're right, if I'm banging on about cables making a difference then maybe it's true...Mario Testino uses solid silver printer cables!!
I know. I have asked many times for DBT confirmation, arguing with benefits for advancement of the audio science. To no avail. The most common answer has been "why don't you do the test yourself, why do you bother me?" which just shows complete misunderstanding of the issue.
Perhaps someone took the tests and did not want to publish the results. I do not know. But I know I have never seen any positive results (i.e. confirmation of different-sound hypothesis) of properly conducted test focused on the typical audiophile issues (usb cables, different bitperfect software setups, different bitperfect OSes, etc.).
I have gradually become VERY sceptical about such claims, in fact I have learnt to ignore them completely. I perfectly understand the reasons for strict rules of the hydrogenaudio forum now.
While your effort is doubtlessly laudable, I do not think a scope will show you much about subtle details. The scope screen resolution is way below the precision required by measurements. IMO if you can see the problem on the scope, the sound is already pretty bad.
The easiest and practically bullet proof way of removing the bias is the blind test. If you do not know something, there is no way you could be biased. Any other option will involve interaction with your knowledge and will skew the results. There have been numerous scientific studies showing people cannot avoid the skew no matter how hard they try to be objective.
It is possible, although maybe less likely, that it is the expensive cable which has something wrong with it.marce said:
Let's be clear about this: all a USB cable has to do is deliver some bits in the right order with all of them correct (to pass the CRC) or enough of them correct to properly fail the CRC and cause a re-transmission. No timing issues, no little audio gremlins. If a system genuinely sounds different with different USB cables then there is something seriously wrong with the equipment or some of the cables i.e. it does not even meet normal commercial standards.
This is the normal situation with 'audiophile' cables. Cable fussiness is a symptom of poor electronic design.
Darn... its too bad the USB cables don't daisy-chain!!
The big problem with A/B testing is that there aren't swap-in/swap-out A/B test boxes, and making them can be tricky. Not impossible though.
I'm betting this is such an asymptotic-with-no-effect observation (with every observer/listener picking up subtle cues from the "operator" leading them thru the experiment)... that the results are entirely moot. This is why I put together my consarned Arduino-controlled A/B box... I wanted to remove MY "operators bias". Its really something how strong it is, and how it all falls apart when an unimpeachable blind justice is throwing the switches and levers (and invisibly tallying the results).
GoatGuy
The big problem with A/B testing is that there aren't swap-in/swap-out A/B test boxes, and making them can be tricky. Not impossible though.
I'm betting this is such an asymptotic-with-no-effect observation (with every observer/listener picking up subtle cues from the "operator" leading them thru the experiment)... that the results are entirely moot. This is why I put together my consarned Arduino-controlled A/B box... I wanted to remove MY "operators bias". Its really something how strong it is, and how it all falls apart when an unimpeachable blind justice is throwing the switches and levers (and invisibly tallying the results).
GoatGuy
Still there are remarkable differences between cables.
I discovered why decades ago, but I will only quote this:
There's an easier way: just create files, then compare the files, easy to do with a foobar abx plugin or Diffmaker. That will take you out of the realm of faith and voodoo into the realm of actual evidence (as unfashionable as that is these days).
If you can't hear a difference under ears-only conditions (and I'll guess that you won't be able to), you'll have a pretty good idea of the relative importance of digital links.
Pray do not keep us poor mortals in the dark, are we refering to cables for digital transmission? and if so what parameters do we need to look at. I would be especially interested as my day to day work revolves around the transmission of signal from a to b (analogue and digital) so any information I can add to my collection of data and also improve my eductaion and understanding of signal transmission would be greatly appreciated.
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