nobody need $5k software to make a PCB, if you do, better not diy anything. There are plenty ways to make your own PCB. Also there are enough readymade layout posted on this board, you only need to learn how to use the search button - and the best: its for free. In case you want to spend 5000$ feel free to do so, diyaudio.com could need it.
Also, there were >>1k PCBs for aleph X made, but only a few amps finished. In case someone really want a pair i´m sure some members would offer to send him. But before this i advice to think about costs for heatsinks, transformers, and caps. The PCB is a cheap part compared to those, and one you do not really need. p2p and veroboard works also.
i was unaware of the fuzz going on with kristijan.
i was just simply commenting that he has a nice product at a good price (for me anyways). if you havent seen his boards, they are quite nice. so, for me its worth it, and i just wanted to pass on the deal to a fellow member, i didnt get the memo not to promote his site, my bad.
i was just simply commenting that he has a nice product at a good price (for me anyways). if you havent seen his boards, they are quite nice. so, for me its worth it, and i just wanted to pass on the deal to a fellow member, i didnt get the memo not to promote his site, my bad.
roddyama e.a.,
for my first project I used kristijans boards for the aleph5 just because it came with excellent quality and very good support and documentation. This last was probably why I succeded in having music out of a playing amplifier instead of having to tweak and search of errors with my second project (my first failed because of lack in understanding what I was doing
). I agree tweaking and compasating for errors has a bigger learning aspect but that is sometimes not the point, "music will do just fine thank U".
If it weren't for kristjans boards (and the quality is superb) I probably woudn't have go one building and now learning more about pass amps including the aleph-x.
Ralph
ps for all those who still wants kristijans webadress look in the gallery at passdiy.com under:
Balanced Zen Line Stage
and you will find kristijans line stage with his webadress clearly stated in the text...
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/bzls-p2.htm
for my first project I used kristijans boards for the aleph5 just because it came with excellent quality and very good support and documentation. This last was probably why I succeded in having music out of a playing amplifier instead of having to tweak and search of errors with my second project (my first failed because of lack in understanding what I was doing
). I agree tweaking and compasating for errors has a bigger learning aspect but that is sometimes not the point, "music will do just fine thank U".If it weren't for kristjans boards (and the quality is superb) I probably woudn't have go one building and now learning more about pass amps including the aleph-x.
Ralph
ps for all those who still wants kristijans webadress look in the gallery at passdiy.com under:
Balanced Zen Line Stage
and you will find kristijans line stage with his webadress clearly stated in the text...
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/bzls-p2.htm
rwagter said:
This action against Kristijan was not taken lightly by the moderators. We all realize the contributions that he has made on this forum and its members. It was just before this thread was posted earlier this month that he started offering the AX boards for sale on his site. Before anything was done, Nelson Pass was contacted and verified that he had not given Kristijan the copyrights to this design. At that point Kristijan was contacted and asked to remove the boards from his site or the link from his signature. He chose instead, not to post since that time.
We (the moderators) are responsible for the content on this forum and no other. I would love to see Kristijan comply with our request and start posting again, but that is his choice. Until that time we cannot allow the link to his site to be posted on the forum.
Personally IMO his persistance in selling the AX boards is illegal and detremental to the forum. This instance, and others like it, are the reason that there are not more exciting designs like those from Pass Labs being posted on the forum. Why should others post their IP on the forum only to have it pirated and sold on the open market.
Me 2 is using the KK pcbs for my Aleph5 and can confirm that Kristijan is really helpfull (specially for noobs like me). But that isn't the issue here, I guess. I never knew that there where legal problems with these boards. I just as well would have used some pcbs based on the Passlabs layout (but that wasn't as readily available at the time). Making you own pcbs based on some layout pic is a huge obstacle for people like me (of course after some time you see that it is not that difficult when using some commercial pcb service). However on the diyaudio nobody objected the KK Alephs boards at that time afaik.
I'm not a lawyer. Is it a problem because the AX circuit is still in production and the Alephs are not?? Personally I don't see that big a differency between the Aleph-X pcbs form the groupbuy (which were magnificent and bone cheap) and the KK AX pcb. Okay, KK is selling the pcbs on a (semi) commercial basis with a small profit (that is probably the big difference isn't it?) . However again it goes that newcomers, that missed the groupbuy boat, now have a chance to buy something equivalent for a reasonable price (imo). Ofcourse without the generousity of mr Pass we would not be able to make these beautiful amps at all.
I understand that somewhere you must draw the line (to protect Passlabs as a company). Although I don't think that people that are in the market for a bare pcb are also considering a brand new factory Pass labs at the same time (maybe some years later). However the next phase is selling complete Pass kits (for around $1000), and after that probably complete working Pass amp clones (for $2000 or more).
Well just some mixed personal thougts on the subject, I don't see an easy solution here. Maybe if KK has some kind of licence from mr Pass, but that is not for me to say.
I guess I understand the actions of the moderators, they do have some responsablity here. However I don't like it, but I think they don't like this too.
I'm not a lawyer. Is it a problem because the AX circuit is still in production and the Alephs are not?? Personally I don't see that big a differency between the Aleph-X pcbs form the groupbuy (which were magnificent and bone cheap) and the KK AX pcb. Okay, KK is selling the pcbs on a (semi) commercial basis with a small profit (that is probably the big difference isn't it?) . However again it goes that newcomers, that missed the groupbuy boat, now have a chance to buy something equivalent for a reasonable price (imo). Ofcourse without the generousity of mr Pass we would not be able to make these beautiful amps at all.
I understand that somewhere you must draw the line (to protect Passlabs as a company). Although I don't think that people that are in the market for a bare pcb are also considering a brand new factory Pass labs at the same time (maybe some years later). However the next phase is selling complete Pass kits (for around $1000), and after that probably complete working Pass amp clones (for $2000 or more).
Well just some mixed personal thougts on the subject, I don't see an easy solution here. Maybe if KK has some kind of licence from mr Pass, but that is not for me to say.
I guess I understand the actions of the moderators, they do have some responsablity here. However I don't like it, but I think they don't like this too.
moral
just my 2 cts.
I believe that it is at least immoral if not illegal to use another
man´s IP without his permission. What would you guys build
if NP would not have been that generous with his IP!
Remember that everything including ZEN, ALEPH, X, XA is his
property. I believe that anybody who makes a business ( and
exactly that does KK) out of another man´s property should at
least ask for permission AND pay royalties to the owner of the
copyright.
Without a doubt this is commercial business, especially as KK´s
pricepolicy is very much business oriented.
I do not consider 48 Euros which are about 58 USD for one board
a bargain!
All members of this board should think over whose generosity
makes it possible for us all to build such exceptional stuff, and
who led the community to the success in building XA (AX if you
want) circuitry.
There are many pcb designs (XA, AX) for free on this board, so
everybody can use them.
There is no reason to support infringement by buying commercially
made pcbs!
If you have trouble in getting your pcbs professionally made, look
at PCB-POOL
Everybody who puts his pcb designs on the board (like me) would
be glad to share his (or her) design files!
Uli
just my 2 cts.
I believe that it is at least immoral if not illegal to use another
man´s IP without his permission. What would you guys build
if NP would not have been that generous with his IP!
Remember that everything including ZEN, ALEPH, X, XA is his
property. I believe that anybody who makes a business ( and
exactly that does KK) out of another man´s property should at
least ask for permission AND pay royalties to the owner of the
copyright.
Without a doubt this is commercial business, especially as KK´s
pricepolicy is very much business oriented.
I do not consider 48 Euros which are about 58 USD for one board
a bargain!
All members of this board should think over whose generosity
makes it possible for us all to build such exceptional stuff, and
who led the community to the success in building XA (AX if you
want) circuitry.
There are many pcb designs (XA, AX) for free on this board, so
everybody can use them.
There is no reason to support infringement by buying commercially
made pcbs!
If you have trouble in getting your pcbs professionally made, look
at PCB-POOL
Everybody who puts his pcb designs on the board (like me) would
be glad to share his (or her) design files!
Uli
statement
btw here is a statement from the master.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=392424#post392424
Uli
btw here is a statement from the master.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=392424#post392424
Uli
For the record:
As a moderator, I (we) are protecting the interest of the forum. What KK (and DIYZone for that matter) is doing is illegal and is therefore not welcome on the forum.
When the incident came to our attention we contacted Nelson Pass as we have with other manufacturers in the past under similar circumstances. The Pass Lab infringements are so visible because he is such a prominent member of our forum and he is so generous with his IP.
What the manufacture does to protect his/her IP is up to them. Our concern is the forum.
Kristijan did aquire permission to sell the Aleph series boards. I don't know the details of that agreement or what other boards it covers, but I do know it does not include the AX (XA) design.
What Kristijan did or will do from here forward is and has been strictly up to him. He is free to enter into these discussions as he is still a member of the forum. He just has to follow the rule like everyone else.
As a moderator, I (we) are protecting the interest of the forum. What KK (and DIYZone for that matter) is doing is illegal and is therefore not welcome on the forum.
When the incident came to our attention we contacted Nelson Pass as we have with other manufacturers in the past under similar circumstances. The Pass Lab infringements are so visible because he is such a prominent member of our forum and he is so generous with his IP.
What the manufacture does to protect his/her IP is up to them. Our concern is the forum.
Kristijan did aquire permission to sell the Aleph series boards. I don't know the details of that agreement or what other boards it covers, but I do know it does not include the AX (XA) design.
What Kristijan did or will do from here forward is and has been strictly up to him. He is free to enter into these discussions as he is still a member of the forum. He just has to follow the rule like everyone else.
yeah, yeah, Rodd,
you made your point.
I have been riding kk's ***, in a semi-friendly manner, for the past two years about his board sideshow business even for just selling aleph boards.
It amazes me the fervor with which you are stating your current position since you are just now awakening to the situation.
you made your point.
I have been riding kk's ***, in a semi-friendly manner, for the past two years about his board sideshow business even for just selling aleph boards.
It amazes me the fervor with which you are stating your current position since you are just now awakening to the situation.
I don't recall giving Kristijan permission to sell Aleph boards,
but that does not mean I didn't, as I have granted permission
many times to use my IP on a not-for-profit basis.
The Aleph circuits are copyrighted, patented, and trademarked,
as are X and XA (Aleph X, if you like) and Zen products. At this
time, no one has been granted permission to commercially use
these properties, although we have an informal verbal agreement
with DECware not to step on each other's toes over the use of
the Zen name, and that's only because he's a nice guy.
pass:/ easy to get along with.
but that does not mean I didn't, as I have granted permission
many times to use my IP on a not-for-profit basis.
The Aleph circuits are copyrighted, patented, and trademarked,
as are X and XA (Aleph X, if you like) and Zen products. At this
time, no one has been granted permission to commercially use
these properties, although we have an informal verbal agreement
with DECware not to step on each other's toes over the use of
the Zen name, and that's only because he's a nice guy.
pass:/ easy to get along with.
Hello,
My name is Kristijan Kljucaric.
There are a quite of threads on this forum that mentioned me and my site with the PCBs.
There are very often some untrue statements and assumptions about me that some peoples
said there, but before that noone did not actually contact me directly to verify any of them.
I am 26, and I live in Zagreb, Croatia, Europe.
I am partially disabled, so I have little more free time for my hobbies : RC airplanes, DIY
electronics, and HI-FI.
This is why there is a lots of time and efforts spent on designing mentioned PCBs.
The main part of the my DIY are amplifiers and speakers.
The Pcb-Design is not a company, it is a simply the name of my website.
I do not sell or provide any kits or ready maded electronic equipment, nor usually sell or provide any
electronic components, except the PCBs that are on my site and that I designed.
There was only four Aleph 3 PCBs that I helped to assemble for the two persons, and
there was a some transistors that I matched for 10-15 peoples for their Aleph projects.
Till now, I did not participate in any of these above mentioned IP discussions, and I don't
plan too often, as some peoples already made up their minds regardless of what I or anyone
else would say, and as they are endless ...
The only real and right person that matters here about the IP is the Mr.Pass and his company,
and not others that would make endless discussions on this forum, kao ''... babe na placu ...''.
I still don't see why it is ok to write the link of my website
on the Passdiy official website, (it was also here for over
last 2 years), and now it is suddenlly not allowed here on forum by one moderator.
There are also the PCBs that I made, and that are already published in Pass gallery:
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/bzls-p2.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph2-p4.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph3-p6.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph3-p4.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph5-p11.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph5-p10.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph5-p7.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph5-p5.htm
Also, I asked for, and get, the permission to make the Aleph PCBs before I
placed them to my website (around 15.4.2002).
At first they had an objection about the PCBs, and they emediatelly
contact me directly about this matter.
As you can see, on the every Pass project PCB that is on my website is very
cleary printed and etched 'PASS LABS CLONE', which is actually the label that
the Mr.Desmond of Pass Labs originally recommended ;
''
Kristijan,
I also went and looked at your web site - very nice. We do have one
request - can you remove "PASS LABS" from the PCBs that you sell.
Having other PCBs out there in the world with PASS LABS on them only
creats confusion and lessens the value of the orignals.
You could call them VIP Alephs or Aleph Clones or something like that.
Thanks,
Desmond.
---
Kristijan,
Thanks for understanding our point, we need to protect our commercial end so
we can continue to support the DIY side.
Labelling your PCB as "Pass Labs Clone" is fine by us.
As for your "Pass Labs Clone Aleph 5", I like the board layout, looks very
clean and symmetrical.
Thanks,
Desmond.
¡¥¡¦
Before I placed the Aleph-X PCBs to my website, I did not specificlly asked
for the Aleph-X PCBs permission, as I felt that there is no difference between
them and regular Aleph PCBs, they both are patented by Pass Labs and thus
are the same regarded with the IP.
However, when moderator ( roddyama ) contact me about AX IP,
I emediatelly e-mailed Mr.Pass directly (13.6.2004 , nelson@passlabs.com) and
asked is it ok to make AX boards, but till now I still did not get an answer.
I still have a copy of this mail, and waiting for the response.
Also, Mr.Pass is the member of this forum who very offten visits it, and he for
shure did not missed my website with Aleph-X PCBs, so if he had any of objections
about AX he would for shure contact me about this matter and I would gladly comply.
The every PCB on my website is designed by me.
The PCBs are for the DIY purposes only, and are maded in very small qty, as I make
them in 10 pcs series after someone contact me and would like to build the project with them.
As for the Aleph-X boards, I made only 6 of them so far...
These PCBs are maded for a small profit tough, but which is low and which I use for
testing the projects with these PCBs, making and designing the new ones, and for
helping other diyers, so at the end there is almost no high profit .
There are also peoples around the world that received the PCBs from me completely free
when they asked for help to fix their projects that they build incorrectly,
or their goverment do not allow to buy anything outside of their country, or some that
simply could not afford to buy them, and so on ...
Also, I believe that I helped many persons with their projects regardless of if they get
mine PCBs or not, and I was and I am willing still whenever I am able to.
There are a lots of peoples, even on this forum, which I believe that can support this...
At the end, as there are every now and then threads started the with the endless
discussions about me and PCBs, and as I would like to stop them, I would like again
to ask here Mr.Pass directly on his opinion.
I am aware that this was stated many times by now, but it seems that there were simply
not enough, as these discussions are still not ending.
If I caused anyone any kind of problem by any way, please accept my deepest
appologies, and let me know if I can do anything to correct them.
Thank you all for your time, and I am sorry about my English and this little too long post.
...infact, this is the my the longest post ever on this forum.
Very best regards from Croatia,
Kristijan Kljucaric
My name is Kristijan Kljucaric.
There are a quite of threads on this forum that mentioned me and my site with the PCBs.
There are very often some untrue statements and assumptions about me that some peoples
said there, but before that noone did not actually contact me directly to verify any of them.
I am 26, and I live in Zagreb, Croatia, Europe.
I am partially disabled, so I have little more free time for my hobbies : RC airplanes, DIY
electronics, and HI-FI.
This is why there is a lots of time and efforts spent on designing mentioned PCBs.
The main part of the my DIY are amplifiers and speakers.
The Pcb-Design is not a company, it is a simply the name of my website.
I do not sell or provide any kits or ready maded electronic equipment, nor usually sell or provide any
electronic components, except the PCBs that are on my site and that I designed.
There was only four Aleph 3 PCBs that I helped to assemble for the two persons, and
there was a some transistors that I matched for 10-15 peoples for their Aleph projects.
Till now, I did not participate in any of these above mentioned IP discussions, and I don't
plan too often, as some peoples already made up their minds regardless of what I or anyone
else would say, and as they are endless ...
The only real and right person that matters here about the IP is the Mr.Pass and his company,
and not others that would make endless discussions on this forum, kao ''... babe na placu ...''
.I still don't see why it is ok to write the link of my website
on the Passdiy official website, (it was also here for over
last 2 years), and now it is suddenlly not allowed here on forum by one moderator.
There are also the PCBs that I made, and that are already published in Pass gallery:
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/bzls-p2.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph2-p4.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph3-p6.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph3-p4.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph5-p11.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph5-p10.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph5-p7.htm
http://www.passdiy.com/gallery/aleph5-p5.htm
Also, I asked for, and get, the permission to make the Aleph PCBs before I
placed them to my website (around 15.4.2002).
At first they had an objection about the PCBs, and they emediatelly
contact me directly about this matter.
As you can see, on the every Pass project PCB that is on my website is very
cleary printed and etched 'PASS LABS CLONE', which is actually the label that
the Mr.Desmond of Pass Labs originally recommended ;
''
Kristijan,
I also went and looked at your web site - very nice. We do have one
request - can you remove "PASS LABS" from the PCBs that you sell.
Having other PCBs out there in the world with PASS LABS on them only
creats confusion and lessens the value of the orignals.
You could call them VIP Alephs or Aleph Clones or something like that.
Thanks,
Desmond.
---
Kristijan,
Thanks for understanding our point, we need to protect our commercial end so
we can continue to support the DIY side.
Labelling your PCB as "Pass Labs Clone" is fine by us.
As for your "Pass Labs Clone Aleph 5", I like the board layout, looks very
clean and symmetrical.
Thanks,
Desmond.
¡¥¡¦
Before I placed the Aleph-X PCBs to my website, I did not specificlly asked
for the Aleph-X PCBs permission, as I felt that there is no difference between
them and regular Aleph PCBs, they both are patented by Pass Labs and thus
are the same regarded with the IP.
However, when moderator ( roddyama ) contact me about AX IP,
I emediatelly e-mailed Mr.Pass directly (13.6.2004 , nelson@passlabs.com) and
asked is it ok to make AX boards, but till now I still did not get an answer.
I still have a copy of this mail, and waiting for the response.
Also, Mr.Pass is the member of this forum who very offten visits it, and he for
shure did not missed my website with Aleph-X PCBs, so if he had any of objections
about AX he would for shure contact me about this matter and I would gladly comply.
The every PCB on my website is designed by me.
The PCBs are for the DIY purposes only, and are maded in very small qty, as I make
them in 10 pcs series after someone contact me and would like to build the project with them.
As for the Aleph-X boards, I made only 6 of them so far...
These PCBs are maded for a small profit tough, but which is low and which I use for
testing the projects with these PCBs, making and designing the new ones, and for
helping other diyers, so at the end there is almost no high profit .
There are also peoples around the world that received the PCBs from me completely free
when they asked for help to fix their projects that they build incorrectly,
or their goverment do not allow to buy anything outside of their country, or some that
simply could not afford to buy them, and so on ...
Also, I believe that I helped many persons with their projects regardless of if they get
mine PCBs or not, and I was and I am willing still whenever I am able to.
There are a lots of peoples, even on this forum, which I believe that can support this...
At the end, as there are every now and then threads started the with the endless
discussions about me and PCBs, and as I would like to stop them, I would like again
to ask here Mr.Pass directly on his opinion.
I am aware that this was stated many times by now, but it seems that there were simply
not enough, as these discussions are still not ending.
If I caused anyone any kind of problem by any way, please accept my deepest
appologies, and let me know if I can do anything to correct them.
Thank you all for your time, and I am sorry about my English and this little too long post.
...infact, this is the my the longest post ever on this forum.
Very best regards from Croatia,
Kristijan Kljucaric
i think it would be an excellent idea if somehow nelson's boards could be produced somehow through this forum and any profit could go to the forum. similar to a group buy... however, it would have to be steadier than a group purchase and possibly a little higher quality... but i would pay an extra $10 for a set of boards for sure.
Even cooler would be that Nelson produces boards and uses the profits to pay the person mailing the boards, ordering the boards, inventoriing the boards.
The problem with Kristijan is not as clear cut as giving some bucks to DIY Audio after ordering from him.
The point is that he is selling them for around $50 I believe, plus more for shipping, which has to mean a profit.
I suspect he can get them produced more cheaply than in the US at least.
I gotta admit- he makes a pretty layout though....
BUT if I'm paying $50 for a board, I'd rather feel that it is going to the correct person.
The problem with Kristijan is not as clear cut as giving some bucks to DIY Audio after ordering from him.
The point is that he is selling them for around $50 I believe, plus more for shipping, which has to mean a profit.
I suspect he can get them produced more cheaply than in the US at least.
I gotta admit- he makes a pretty layout though....
BUT if I'm paying $50 for a board, I'd rather feel that it is going to the correct person.
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