Maybe not a musical detail but perhaps 2db difference on the wrong freqs. may be felt like an opamp being "edgy" or "bright" and another being felt as "warm" or "dark". These (HF) distortions perhaps cause that the brain looses focus on fine detail...
Hi Martin,
Talking about PSRR ( wich is high for this opamp ) , do you think performance would benefit from a good "capacitance multiplier"ed power supply?
I guess yes...
Cheers,
M
DouglasSelf said:
Hi Doug,
If you happen to have a system on with the FFT capability, I've found you can get much lower THD measures by FFTing the output of the THD analyzer. Its also of merit to see what the harmonics are that are the prime sources. High order harmonics being much more audible of coarse. IF you don't have that module... well, there is always the data sheet method that amplifies distortion to measureable values.
Portlandmike
p.s. love your book! your an excellent contibuter to us DYIers.
maxlorenz said:
Maybe not a musical detail but perhaps 2db difference on the wrong freqs. may be felt like an opamp being "edgy" or "bright" and another being felt as "warm" or "dark". These (HF) distortions perhaps cause that the brain looses focus on fine detail...
Hi Martin,
Talking about PSRR ( wich is high for this opamp ) , do you think performance would benefit from a good "capacitance multiplier"ed power supply?
I guess yes...
Cheers,
M
Hi Max's,
Its not the 2dB that matters likely. Most of the time you'll see much of the distortion in the 2nd and 4th or 3rd and 5th. If its not real low "total" hd, then that 5th can perhaps be noticable.
What is very noticable is what its doing in the say 7th and above and those levels needn't be anywhere near as high to be actually audible. I know from experience many years ago, a .05% in a 14th is brain dead non-audiophile noticable. Like " that sounds like sh$%!
Thus, IMO, its more to do with spacific harmonics than total, which is mostly useless except as a generic measure of crap versus less crap. 1% 2nd harmonic is nothing offensive at all for example.
Long time out of circulation for me. I've always like cap multipliers if you can't afford the space and cost of the real cap. I generally think regulated supplies for audio, especially the IC variety, cause more issue than they solve. The PSSR of most op amps is off the charts at 120Hz and the harmonics, while they generally have nasty boosting where the control loop of the regulator hits 0dB.
Thus, yeah, cap multipliers are good. Think real lossy. Burn power! Drop lots of volts, and get your Vce on the cap multiplier high, like over 5V, and use some sassy little xistors like MPSA18's.
Pleny of gas for an op amp power supply.
Not sure its better than a huge cap though!
still, think lossy. When the cap looks more like a inductor, the op amps PSSR is usually not so hot either.
Been listing to the LM4562 in my preamp for almost a year now. finally got around to seeing what people are saying about this LM.
My SACD 777 stopped working and I had to tear into it to fix a bad op amp (LM6172). Got me thinking about swapping all the OA's in the thing out for LM4562's. I think they pretty much best all the stuff in there.
My one socket I'm unsure of is the output buffer. It uses a rather mild mannered AD712 driving a discrete buffer.
What's the scuttle on the the LM4562 for driving cables?
Is a buffer required?
Don't really want to risk dropping it in without lots of analysis and test since its like 20x more bandwidth than the AD712.
Sounds more or less hands down the LM4562 is a plus in the UCD, correct?
Best regards friend!
Portland Mike
Hi Mighty Mike
It is good to see you again around here.
You know I don't know a s**** about what I'm talking about (specially digital stuff) but that never stopped myself from experimenting and even learning a bit
Yeah, that's what I meant when I said
About cap multiplier, the guys at pinkfishmedia (dear Martin et al.) are playing with this interesting concept. I made a few myself for my ALWSR and I can say I am sold to it. It appears that I did the least performing VBE but nevertheless, the gain is very significant. I will try the better circuits now. The good thing is that you can have the effect of a BIG film cap, say 5000uF or higher, filtering HF.
I dream about making cheap DVD's sound good by making a silent PS. But, as they all have SMPS, it risks to be a long way. I use LM4562 at the output of a multiformat player with success. It drives (short) cables easilly.
The LM4562 on UCD's sound very good. I did not dare to DC couple it yet, but it is very transparent anyway and after appropriate burn-in the sound becomes more punchy but still detailed and elegant. I have not used it on my active XO. I fear of thin sound by using to many on the chain...
Sorry about your Sony player
It is said that PC based source can be HiEnd. I will test it soon
All the best for you,
M
It is good to see you again around here.
You know I don't know a s**** about what I'm talking about (specially digital stuff) but that never stopped myself from experimenting and even learning a bit
Yeah, that's what I meant when I said
About cap multiplier, the guys at pinkfishmedia (dear Martin et al.) are playing with this interesting concept. I made a few myself for my ALWSR and I can say I am sold to it. It appears that I did the least performing VBE but nevertheless, the gain is very significant. I will try the better circuits now. The good thing is that you can have the effect of a BIG film cap, say 5000uF or higher, filtering HF.
I dream about making cheap DVD's sound good by making a silent PS. But, as they all have SMPS, it risks to be a long way. I use LM4562 at the output of a multiformat player with success. It drives (short) cables easilly.
The LM4562 on UCD's sound very good. I did not dare to DC couple it yet, but it is very transparent anyway and after appropriate burn-in the sound becomes more punchy but still detailed and elegant. I have not used it on my active XO. I fear of thin sound by using to many on the chain...
Sorry about your Sony player
It is said that PC based source can be HiEnd. I will test it soon
All the best for you,
M
maxlorenz said:Hi Mighty Mike
The LM4562 on UCD's sound very good. I did not dare to DC couple it yet, but it is very transparent anyway and after appropriate burn-in the sound becomes more punchy but still detailed and elegant. I have not used it on my active XO. I fear of thin sound by using to many on the chain...
Sorry about your Sony player
It is said that PC based source can be HiEnd. I will test it soon
All the best for you,
M
Max's,
Don't sweat DC coupling on the UCD's. They will not allow any damaging affect to your speakers. My CD player was putting out 4V DC, and the UCD just made a periodic pip-pop pip pop at low levels as the over voltage protection kicks in.
This assumes you didn't take that out :>)
My sony is up and lives. I've never seeen an op amp just go dead when its so isollated from the outside world.
wierd!
Hi Tubee,
You are referring to "perceived" freq. curve, right?
It is difficult to describe...if BB are on the dark side and AD are on the bright side the LM are in the middle, or better, they have qualities of both: transparent and detailed like AD (but even better and never edgy) and extended, controled bass like BB. It just lacks the warmth and darkness of the later.
Maybe I should better say it is as close as not having an opamp at all as I can imagine at the beginning of the XXI century
Flat and transparent
NE5532? those are grainy and primitive in comparison. Try the LM4562 and share your thoughts. I bet you will be more than pleased (after appropriate burn-in).
(I mean, you use tubee preamps, right? )
Cheers,
M
You are referring to "perceived" freq. curve, right?
It is difficult to describe...if BB are on the dark side and AD are on the bright side the LM are in the middle, or better, they have qualities of both: transparent and detailed like AD (but even better and never edgy) and extended, controled bass like BB. It just lacks the warmth and darkness of the later.
Maybe I should better say it is as close as not having an opamp at all as I can imagine at the beginning of the XXI century
Flat and transparent
NE5532? those are grainy and primitive in comparison. Try the LM4562 and share your thoughts. I bet you will be more than pleased (after appropriate burn-in).
(I mean, you use tubee preamps, right?
)Cheers,
M
Yes i little confusing post i did.
I ment indeed the perceived freq. curve compared to the other to upgrade opamps.
With the distorsion of an NE5532 i ment harmonic distorsion, sorry for mixing that up. But imo the sound of the NE5532 is defined by the using of only bipolar transistors in this opamp. (firm bass, coloured bass-mids, small " hole" in high-mids) Fets can give some transparence, often perceived bass response suffers from a lot of fet opamps, but again imo. And matter of taste.
Anyway will ask a friend of my if he wants to try LM4562's too, and then we can order together at digikey. I saw lately they have now all chips available (metal can, SMD and DIP)
Yes have all tube(e) gear, except the output devices, they are Toshiba Fets
I ment indeed the perceived freq. curve compared to the other to upgrade opamps.
With the distorsion of an NE5532 i ment harmonic distorsion, sorry for mixing that up. But imo the sound of the NE5532 is defined by the using of only bipolar transistors in this opamp. (firm bass, coloured bass-mids, small " hole" in high-mids) Fets can give some transparence, often perceived bass response suffers from a lot of fet opamps, but again imo. And matter of taste.
Anyway will ask a friend of my if he wants to try LM4562's too, and then we can order together at digikey. I saw lately they have now all chips available (metal can, SMD and DIP)
Yes have all tube(e) gear, except the output devices, they are Toshiba Fets
FET's on an NE5534 !
Anyone heard the Fet modified input to the NE5534 ?
Anything at all ?
Unfortunately I cannot find the link to the image that showed how it was done .
I'm sure that will be a very illuminating experiment.
I don't mind making an assembled pcb and shipping it to D.Self or anyone who has access to an AP test set. Anyone ?
Cheers,
Ashok.
Anyone heard the Fet modified input to the NE5534 ?
Anything at all ?
Unfortunately I cannot find the link to the image that showed how it was done .
I'm sure that will be a very illuminating experiment.
I don't mind making an assembled pcb and shipping it to D.Self or anyone who has access to an AP test set. Anyone ?
Cheers,
Ashok.
NE5532 is not bad sounding.... as long as you use it as an output stage. I found that the other day when roling chips in my tube hybrid, where the opamp part is configured as such. I'm not saying it has the neutrality of an opa2227, but it has lots of bass packing power and drives pretty high output levels...
You can get bass out of opa2227 and lots of it, but the circuit needs to be rock solid stable....and it does not seem to like being DC coupled at all. I reccon somewhere out there, one of you engineers will know the right calculations to get just that done, but in my limited skillset and high enthusiasm levels, those are my findings.Lacking lots of theorising ability is not always bad though, you actualy get to do stuff with your hands once in a while...just for the sake of learning.
I intend to do alot more experiments along these lines using the opamp for all the input impendance it can throw together...
You can get bass out of opa2227 and lots of it, but the circuit needs to be rock solid stable....and it does not seem to like being DC coupled at all. I reccon somewhere out there, one of you engineers will know the right calculations to get just that done, but in my limited skillset and high enthusiasm levels, those are my findings.Lacking lots of theorising ability is not always bad though, you actualy get to do stuff with your hands once in a while...just for the sake of learning.
I intend to do alot more experiments along these lines using the opamp for all the input impendance it can throw together...
http://www.sac.de/sac/start_frame.php?Pfad=2_4&BL=3
On the second amp they clame a damping factor of 20.000!!!
Not my particular way, to achieve this overall feedback must be 90dB or something. Background noises/low level detail is gone then too.
On the second amp they clame a damping factor of 20.000!!!
Not my particular way, to achieve this overall feedback must be 90dB or something. Background noises/low level detail is gone then too.
Re: FET's on an NE5534 !
Here's the WJ circuit simmed with the NE5534 inserted in place of the AD817:
ashok said:
Here's the WJ circuit simmed with the NE5534 inserted in place of the AD817:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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