Yep, that sumbitch got a TO-92 size (300 mW) die in it. A lot of TO-92’s (ones rated 800 mW and up) actually have BD139 size dies in them. The 639 is a direct equivalent.
Makes one really wonder how much they can really be making off the operation, considering that package cost of a TO-126 exceeds the cost of either die. Unless they were selling the ”NXPs“ at a premium because of brand. What I would have done as a faker would be to put a larger die in there that doesn’t cost a mill more. Won’t give 190 MHz fT but who checks that? Uninformed user would simply use them, believing he’s got the best in the business. When they blow up the user sure as hell knows.
Makes one really wonder how much they can really be making off the operation, considering that package cost of a TO-126 exceeds the cost of either die. Unless they were selling the ”NXPs“ at a premium because of brand. What I would have done as a faker would be to put a larger die in there that doesn’t cost a mill more. Won’t give 190 MHz fT but who checks that? Uninformed user would simply use them, believing he’s got the best in the business. When they blow up the user sure as hell knows.
Hi wg_ski,
The fake business escapes me on small devices. Back when they started with TV horizontal outputs and the Sony SCR (SG613 I think), it made sense. Fake TO-92 devices don't make any sense at all. Even less for the scum that buys them from the manufacturer (or remarker) to sell on the web.
The fake business escapes me on small devices. Back when they started with TV horizontal outputs and the Sony SCR (SG613 I think), it made sense. Fake TO-92 devices don't make any sense at all. Even less for the scum that buys them from the manufacturer (or remarker) to sell on the web.
Fake horizontal outputs,what a pain!
BU808D the king of fake.
Years later i have used two horizondal outputs in Darlington configuration together with some resistors and diodes.
A dried coupling capacitor in the base was the start of fault.
Got some new parts from TME.
These are from ST and CDIL .
Genuine or not ? .
Thank you.
- Bruno.
Attachments
While they may be genuine from CDIL, I wouldn't trust them to be in compliance with the original types. This isn't a knock on CDIL, but it is a knock on all new manufactures of old part numbers discontinued by the original manufacturers. What are they really? I mean electrically exact, or similar? If similar, they really are a different part and should be labelled as such. You should also be looking at consistency from any manufacturer as that is a direct indicator of quality.
Honestly, the only parts you should ever use are old part numbers made by the original licensed manufacturers, or current parts made by licensed manufacturers. If I see any part that isn't from the original manufacturers in equipment - out they go! I just pulled one from a Hafler DH-200 last night. Did it work? Yes, but it may have impacted reliability or performance. It got an original part, the previous "tech" also used off-brand capacitors (out they went). Now this equipment will perform as it was intended to, along with having the same long service life expected of it.
It simply is not worth using parts not first quality. Use junk, and you will get substandard performance or reliability - or both. The equipment it therefore no longer what the name plate says it is. A total waste.
So use either guaranteed genuine original parts, or something current from proper distribution sources. Do it right, there is zero excuse to use anything but correct parts. Sometimes if people can't afford a proper repair, it is better the equipment remains not working. A poor repair can damage other equipment (speakers) and at best represent wasted money - which by definition they cannot afford. Then the equipment is again not working, plus possible more serious damage or damage caused by a person through poor workmanship. IN the best scenario, the equipment never performs to spec, and the customer may as well have traded that equipment for stuff that is less than they bought. That is almost theft (well, it is theft in my book).
Honestly, the only parts you should ever use are old part numbers made by the original licensed manufacturers, or current parts made by licensed manufacturers. If I see any part that isn't from the original manufacturers in equipment - out they go! I just pulled one from a Hafler DH-200 last night. Did it work? Yes, but it may have impacted reliability or performance. It got an original part, the previous "tech" also used off-brand capacitors (out they went). Now this equipment will perform as it was intended to, along with having the same long service life expected of it.
It simply is not worth using parts not first quality. Use junk, and you will get substandard performance or reliability - or both. The equipment it therefore no longer what the name plate says it is. A total waste.
So use either guaranteed genuine original parts, or something current from proper distribution sources. Do it right, there is zero excuse to use anything but correct parts. Sometimes if people can't afford a proper repair, it is better the equipment remains not working. A poor repair can damage other equipment (speakers) and at best represent wasted money - which by definition they cannot afford. Then the equipment is again not working, plus possible more serious damage or damage caused by a person through poor workmanship. IN the best scenario, the equipment never performs to spec, and the customer may as well have traded that equipment for stuff that is less than they bought. That is almost theft (well, it is theft in my book).
@anatech Thank you for your comment.
I do this as a hobby, ( a noob in electronics , at least compared to the people on this forum ) I don't invest much at the moment in " premium, exotic , " parts. Tho, most of them are cheap nowdays.
I liked " the sound " of BD139/140's thats why I use them. ( also cheap).
Are the ST " in compliance with the originals ? " . Do mine look genuine ST ?.
I don't know reliable sources to buy parts,
TME and Adelaida ( Romanian shop for parts, ) seem to be " legit" . you guys buy from Mouser?. I'll have to try them, when I buy more things because of the delivery price to be worth.
I do this as a hobby, ( a noob in electronics , at least compared to the people on this forum ) I don't invest much at the moment in " premium, exotic , " parts. Tho, most of them are cheap nowdays.
I liked " the sound " of BD139/140's thats why I use them. ( also cheap).
Are the ST " in compliance with the originals ? " . Do mine look genuine ST ?.
I don't know reliable sources to buy parts,
TME and Adelaida ( Romanian shop for parts, ) seem to be " legit" . you guys buy from Mouser?. I'll have to try them, when I buy more things because of the delivery price to be worth.
BD139/140 still do what they once were designed for very well. But how do they "sound"? I'm not aware of a specific one...
Best regards!
Hi,
ST are fine and made to high standards.
Hi xXBrunoXx,
A couple of things.
I started as a hobbyist, we all do. I couldn't get parts, or afford them when i was young, nor could anyone else I knew. We got our parts from old equipment to make projects, or our own things. Later we might use some parts to repair something for ourselves (only!!!). We also bought surplus parts. In many ways we were lucky that fake parts were not even heard of yet. There were really cheap, substandard tubes. We learned about that pretty quick and didn't buy garbage.
So in many ways we were much worse off than any people who started later. There was no internet, no bulletin boards, no computers and all phones were wired to the wall. Magazine ads were the only mass media and mail order was how we did things. That and surplus shops and taking discarded equipment apart. I would take trips into the nearest city with friends to buy parts and hope to find bargains. We had to measure pulled parts to make sure they were good (hence my lifelong interest and study of parts). We never repaired things for others.
Once I started training, I would repair things for friends and family, but never ever used questionable parts. When someone gives you something to fix, they always assume it will be done right, and that you could judge where you could cut corners (you can't cut corners in case you ever wondered). So they expect a proper job no matter what deal you are making. Therefore there is zero, never any excuse to do work that isn't correct, or to use parts that are not to industry standards.
The problem is, a hobbyist will repair things for friends no matter how much they deny it. It is human nature. You want to help (but some just want the money).
Now about parts. "Premium, exotic parts" simply do not exist. You have industry standard parts, and crap (garbage). There are parts that have special processing, like radiation hardening, hermetic or other special processes that have nothing to do with how they act. We have high reliability parts that undergo extensive testing, again they do not act any differently in normal use. Those are expensive, but for different reasons like life support and military, aerospace and such. There are times the special requirements actually degrad performance compared to what we use in industry as well, yet those parts are far more expensive.
We do have carbon film, and metal film resistors for example. Each have their uses, but cheap examples of either fail or have poor end cap connections. So, parts are either in compliance with industry standards, or they are unreliable garbage. So why on earth would any sane person buy substandard junk? One part worth pennies, saving over a "real part" by less than $1, can cause failure of several other real parts and damage circuit boards, external items and cause many hours of troubleshooting. So ... can anyone justify that gamble? You end up often behind the point you were at before you "repaired" an item. This is insanity. Now if the piece belongs to someone else, you just may have permanently destroyed it for the savings of pennies. If they knew, do you think they would thank you? From absolutely everyone I have had contact with, I can say that no. They absolutely would not thank you and would in fact try to understand why very little money cost them the item entirely, or a repeat, more expensive repair job. Not to mention your time.
So in summation, being "just a hobbyist" is no excuse for doing poor work, or using substandard parts. Period. It simply makes no sense to do so. Learn how to do things the right way like we used to do.
ST are fine and made to high standards.
Hi xXBrunoXx,
A couple of things.
I started as a hobbyist, we all do. I couldn't get parts, or afford them when i was young, nor could anyone else I knew. We got our parts from old equipment to make projects, or our own things. Later we might use some parts to repair something for ourselves (only!!!). We also bought surplus parts. In many ways we were lucky that fake parts were not even heard of yet. There were really cheap, substandard tubes. We learned about that pretty quick and didn't buy garbage.
So in many ways we were much worse off than any people who started later. There was no internet, no bulletin boards, no computers and all phones were wired to the wall. Magazine ads were the only mass media and mail order was how we did things. That and surplus shops and taking discarded equipment apart. I would take trips into the nearest city with friends to buy parts and hope to find bargains. We had to measure pulled parts to make sure they were good (hence my lifelong interest and study of parts). We never repaired things for others.
Once I started training, I would repair things for friends and family, but never ever used questionable parts. When someone gives you something to fix, they always assume it will be done right, and that you could judge where you could cut corners (you can't cut corners in case you ever wondered). So they expect a proper job no matter what deal you are making. Therefore there is zero, never any excuse to do work that isn't correct, or to use parts that are not to industry standards.
The problem is, a hobbyist will repair things for friends no matter how much they deny it. It is human nature. You want to help (but some just want the money).
Now about parts. "Premium, exotic parts" simply do not exist. You have industry standard parts, and crap (garbage). There are parts that have special processing, like radiation hardening, hermetic or other special processes that have nothing to do with how they act. We have high reliability parts that undergo extensive testing, again they do not act any differently in normal use. Those are expensive, but for different reasons like life support and military, aerospace and such. There are times the special requirements actually degrad performance compared to what we use in industry as well, yet those parts are far more expensive.
We do have carbon film, and metal film resistors for example. Each have their uses, but cheap examples of either fail or have poor end cap connections. So, parts are either in compliance with industry standards, or they are unreliable garbage. So why on earth would any sane person buy substandard junk? One part worth pennies, saving over a "real part" by less than $1, can cause failure of several other real parts and damage circuit boards, external items and cause many hours of troubleshooting. So ... can anyone justify that gamble? You end up often behind the point you were at before you "repaired" an item. This is insanity. Now if the piece belongs to someone else, you just may have permanently destroyed it for the savings of pennies. If they knew, do you think they would thank you? From absolutely everyone I have had contact with, I can say that no. They absolutely would not thank you and would in fact try to understand why very little money cost them the item entirely, or a repeat, more expensive repair job. Not to mention your time.
So in summation, being "just a hobbyist" is no excuse for doing poor work, or using substandard parts. Period. It simply makes no sense to do so. Learn how to do things the right way like we used to do.
@anatech I'm 27, since I was a child I did mess around with electronics, my father used to be electrician and also built amps , woodworking, all the things I got from him. You're right, better buy something good or nothing at all. And that's what I usually do ,regarding tools , household appliances, etc.
As for parts I bought before at the normal price of that specific part but from unreliable sources , so not genuine parts.
Most of my " collection " of parts are from broken, old / new hardware, transistors, ic's, vintage parts, industrial parts , etc. Most likely genuine . Electronics made in Japan, tho old ,I think they used good parts, and correct me if I'm wrong, transistors don't age, or at least not in our lifetime.
My father did electronics, from the late 80's until recent years. I know the lack of datasheets, getting components, especially here in Europe, not to say Romania who was communist until 89' . Information we get today on internet, much easier life in this hobby, and in everything else for that matter.
As for parts I bought before at the normal price of that specific part but from unreliable sources , so not genuine parts.
Most of my " collection " of parts are from broken, old / new hardware, transistors, ic's, vintage parts, industrial parts , etc. Most likely genuine . Electronics made in Japan, tho old ,I think they used good parts, and correct me if I'm wrong, transistors don't age, or at least not in our lifetime.
My father did electronics, from the late 80's until recent years. I know the lack of datasheets, getting components, especially here in Europe, not to say Romania who was communist until 89' . Information we get today on internet, much easier life in this hobby, and in everything else for that matter.
Hi xXBrunoXx,
I'm very glad you're in this hobby, it is rewarding life-long. I still learn every day. I am very nearly 65 now.
Yes, parts from old equipment that were not replaced are probably exactly what they are stamped as being. Transistors do age, and they can be damaged without failing entirely. A great deal depends on operating temperature and run time. Of course overvoltage or overcurrent will damage them, or reverse bias with junction breakdown. The same is true for integrated circuits, even digital ones.
As painful as it is, you may be forced to buy from authorized distributors and wait. We always had to do this before, thank goodness shipping is much quicker these days. Today I should be getting a shipment of parts from the USA. I have to wait also, but your wait may be longer. The real trick is to use current parts. They do improve, or they would use the old part. Sometimes the package is cheaper, and that causes problems in replacement or existing designs. But trying to source parts you can't be sure of causes more problems!
I'm very glad you're in this hobby, it is rewarding life-long. I still learn every day. I am very nearly 65 now.
Yes, parts from old equipment that were not replaced are probably exactly what they are stamped as being. Transistors do age, and they can be damaged without failing entirely. A great deal depends on operating temperature and run time. Of course overvoltage or overcurrent will damage them, or reverse bias with junction breakdown. The same is true for integrated circuits, even digital ones.
As painful as it is, you may be forced to buy from authorized distributors and wait. We always had to do this before, thank goodness shipping is much quicker these days. Today I should be getting a shipment of parts from the USA. I have to wait also, but your wait may be longer. The real trick is to use current parts. They do improve, or they would use the old part. Sometimes the package is cheaper, and that causes problems in replacement or existing designs. But trying to source parts you can't be sure of causes more problems!
The question is, is there a real risk that components from CDIL, for example, are substandard junk. Or is this an irrational fear, based on bad experiences in the past with other suppliers not headquartered in the western world.
Times are a changing, India now ventures into space, using semiconductors made by CDIL. I cannot imagine it would be succesful if they supplied junk parts.
On the other hand, in the US you see Boeing destroying their reputation selling substandard planes..
Hi gijser,
It is up to the manufacturer to PROVE the parts they sell are exactly equivalent to the original number in every aspect. I don't care who that manufacturer is.
Data sheets are a good clue as that is what you do your incoming inspection on. The other indicator is how consistent the parts are from each other. I have not seen complete data sheets from any supplier that is second source yet. If they can't at least get that right, I strongly doubt their processes are controlled well enough and they may not even know how close their part is to the original.
So there you go. There are solid parts to choose from available from trusted sources. Want to throw the dice with the unknown, that is entirely up to you. It sure isn't up to me to prove or disprove the quality of parts from unknowns, that is entirely up to them.
It is up to the manufacturer to PROVE the parts they sell are exactly equivalent to the original number in every aspect. I don't care who that manufacturer is.
Data sheets are a good clue as that is what you do your incoming inspection on. The other indicator is how consistent the parts are from each other. I have not seen complete data sheets from any supplier that is second source yet. If they can't at least get that right, I strongly doubt their processes are controlled well enough and they may not even know how close their part is to the original.
So there you go. There are solid parts to choose from available from trusted sources. Want to throw the dice with the unknown, that is entirely up to you. It sure isn't up to me to prove or disprove the quality of parts from unknowns, that is entirely up to them.
Like I said earlier, CDIL are good, they (like many others) do not bother to sell in the West, because the volumes are low and the customers want them to prove QC is good every time they buy $50-100 worth of parts.
They have been in business since 1964, look at their site, they make BLDC ceiling fan controllers as well, many Mosfets too.
Again, their production schedule is geared towards volumes, not the latest super-duper I gotta have this parts.
So they mind their own business, don't bother with the loose change tiny orders, and thrive, much to the chagrin of Western windbags, who think too much of themselves, and cannot buy in the volumes needed for a maker to sustain and grow.
I have seen threads on this site where people in Chicago area are offering 20 units 3886, for example. That is less than US$200!
UTC Taiwan, and even ST earlier used to make parts declared obsolete by the original makers, so it is a little unfair to point at one company, without checking the parts and the data sheets.
UTC Taiwan data sheets for their TDA2050 are just the original ST sheets, in a different font!
And their portfolio has a lot of parts where the OEM stopped making them.
And if it is a licensed or good version, which works properly, the choice is to return the damaged unit to service, or scrap it, just because the OEM stopped making them...
I have no ties to CDIL, the price for their 3055 was 40 Rupees last I asked couple years back, and ST was 45...local market, single unit, expect price reduction of 30% in thousand quantity.
The retail prices in cities like Mumbai and Delhi will be less, more sales from shops there.
They have been in business since 1964, look at their site, they make BLDC ceiling fan controllers as well, many Mosfets too.
Again, their production schedule is geared towards volumes, not the latest super-duper I gotta have this parts.
So they mind their own business, don't bother with the loose change tiny orders, and thrive, much to the chagrin of Western windbags, who think too much of themselves, and cannot buy in the volumes needed for a maker to sustain and grow.
I have seen threads on this site where people in Chicago area are offering 20 units 3886, for example. That is less than US$200!
UTC Taiwan, and even ST earlier used to make parts declared obsolete by the original makers, so it is a little unfair to point at one company, without checking the parts and the data sheets.
UTC Taiwan data sheets for their TDA2050 are just the original ST sheets, in a different font!
And their portfolio has a lot of parts where the OEM stopped making them.
And if it is a licensed or good version, which works properly, the choice is to return the damaged unit to service, or scrap it, just because the OEM stopped making them...
I have no ties to CDIL, the price for their 3055 was 40 Rupees last I asked couple years back, and ST was 45...local market, single unit, expect price reduction of 30% in thousand quantity.
The retail prices in cities like Mumbai and Delhi will be less, more sales from shops there.
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One more thing, ST does not have the 3055 listed (when checked from India)... I would rather buy genuine CDIL than a fake ST marked product.
There are many horror stories about fake parts, so the decision will be to buy equivalent parts from a reputable seller, as in many cases the OEM stopped making them, and you have to repair a unit.
There are many horror stories about fake parts, so the decision will be to buy equivalent parts from a reputable seller, as in many cases the OEM stopped making them, and you have to repair a unit.
I just noticed there is chinese manufacturer I have never heard of, Luguang Electronic, that makes the BD139/140. I can buy them from a reputable distributor in Europe. There is a decent looking datasheet here.
They cost about the same as the CDIL ones, wich is half the price of the ONSEMIs.
Someone should test these different devices and put the results on the interweb.
They cost about the same as the CDIL ones, wich is half the price of the ONSEMIs.
Someone should test these different devices and put the results on the interweb.