Peter:
>Having the wood block milled out to a required shape, and then painted inside to eliminate RF interference, makes it a nice starting point for a chassis. It's probably better than metal chassis, as wood affects electrical circuits less than metal (sonically, or at least in a different way).<
I don't altogether disagree, but bear in mind that the circuit bandwidth, physical size and local RF conditions have a significant effect on what types of chassis materials and constructions you can safely use. With clean RF conditions, you may be able to use damn near anything for the chassis. But in a dirty environment (as in many big cities), you may need compact circuitry with heavy input low-pass filtering inside a copper-plated steel chassis (look at some of the Japanese gear, like those from Marantz or Pioneer).
>I also suspect that it's not coincidence that the board is not attached to the wood by screws and usual standoffs but it's done by using hot glue (I suspect).<
Differences in the environment (esp. temperature and humidity) can have a profound effect on the dimensional stability of wood. When you use wood, it is best to not rely on it for long-term dimensional accuracy, and incorporate floating structural concepts, so that the wood can move as much as it wants to without affecting subassemblies that may be attached to the wood. If you try to constrain wood so that it cannot move much, it may develop cracks and/or warps after some years in the field.
>I am still impressed by the engineering choices made in constraction of this little wonder, and I definitely use some of them to inspire my future projects (the cheap ones at least ).<
In the end, as long as you can make your choice work to your satisfaction, and it doesn't create problems in the field, anything is ok. As you may know, we have also used wood in a number of our designs. While the older Connoisseur Model 1 and 2 used full-enclosure-type wooden cabinetry, based on my experiences with these older designs, I have limited the use of wood in the more recent designs (Connoisseur 3, 4 and 5) to the front panel and sides.
>Any idea how it performs?<
There is a new thread about the Grado RS1 headphones and RA1 phono stage on PinkFish. Check out:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1090
regards, jonathan carr
>Having the wood block milled out to a required shape, and then painted inside to eliminate RF interference, makes it a nice starting point for a chassis. It's probably better than metal chassis, as wood affects electrical circuits less than metal (sonically, or at least in a different way).<
I don't altogether disagree, but bear in mind that the circuit bandwidth, physical size and local RF conditions have a significant effect on what types of chassis materials and constructions you can safely use. With clean RF conditions, you may be able to use damn near anything for the chassis. But in a dirty environment (as in many big cities), you may need compact circuitry with heavy input low-pass filtering inside a copper-plated steel chassis (look at some of the Japanese gear, like those from Marantz or Pioneer).
>I also suspect that it's not coincidence that the board is not attached to the wood by screws and usual standoffs but it's done by using hot glue (I suspect).<
Differences in the environment (esp. temperature and humidity) can have a profound effect on the dimensional stability of wood. When you use wood, it is best to not rely on it for long-term dimensional accuracy, and incorporate floating structural concepts, so that the wood can move as much as it wants to without affecting subassemblies that may be attached to the wood. If you try to constrain wood so that it cannot move much, it may develop cracks and/or warps after some years in the field.
>I am still impressed by the engineering choices made in constraction of this little wonder, and I definitely use some of them to inspire my future projects (the cheap ones at least ).<
In the end, as long as you can make your choice work to your satisfaction, and it doesn't create problems in the field, anything is ok. As you may know, we have also used wood in a number of our designs. While the older Connoisseur Model 1 and 2 used full-enclosure-type wooden cabinetry, based on my experiences with these older designs, I have limited the use of wood in the more recent designs (Connoisseur 3, 4 and 5) to the front panel and sides.
>Any idea how it performs?<
There is a new thread about the Grado RS1 headphones and RA1 phono stage on PinkFish. Check out:
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1090
regards, jonathan carr
I agree with Peter!
This is a $500 product and dealer cut is probably 40% to to 45%
http://www.gradolabs.com/product_pages/phono_amp.htm
Frank Lloyd Wright said "form follows function". Mechanical noise is an issue for low level circuits and hot melt glue is excellent for damping and probably adds significantly to the sonics. Us cable designer have been using it for years. The enclosure is attractive and sets it apart from other products in it's price range. Most customers don't take stuff apart to see how it is made. Designing very good products in high end audio at reasonable prices is often more of a challenge than expensive products with practically unlimited parts budgets. Say, isn't Grado a competitor to......... never mind.
Planning another product? Perander$
BTW I don't think that is the complete schematic from the circuit description on
the website.
This is a $500 product and dealer cut is probably 40% to to 45%
http://www.gradolabs.com/product_pages/phono_amp.htm
Frank Lloyd Wright said "form follows function". Mechanical noise is an issue for low level circuits and hot melt glue is excellent for damping and probably adds significantly to the sonics. Us cable designer have been using it for years. The enclosure is attractive and sets it apart from other products in it's price range. Most customers don't take stuff apart to see how it is made. Designing very good products in high end audio at reasonable prices is often more of a challenge than expensive products with practically unlimited parts budgets. Say, isn't Grado a competitor to......... never mind.
Planning another product? Perander$
BTW I don't think that is the complete schematic from the circuit description on
the website.
Jonathan, you took the words from my mouth. Can the Grado box get any approvals at all? How good is really conductive paint as shield really (in combination with two not very good connected plates)? I see also very poor decoupling of the amp. This is sharp contrast with ordinary japanese amps with too much filtering....
How much wood would a........
">I am still impressed by the engineering choices made in constraction of this little wonder, and I definitely use some of them to inspire my future projects (the cheap ones at least ).<"
Good save Mr. Carr! I thought you were going to drop that pop fly for sure.
">I am still impressed by the engineering choices made in constraction of this little wonder, and I definitely use some of them to inspire my future projects (the cheap ones at least ).<"
Good save Mr. Carr! I thought you were going to drop that pop fly for sure.
I can do any thing better than you.......
They will just have to sell them over here I guess. I thought the whole point of the CE approval was to keep European products from having to compete with American products. The 0.1 uf ceramics parked right next to the op amp seems like pretty good high frequency decoupling. It's an analog circuit that shouldn't radiate RFI and most of the RFI pick up is often from the cartridge and tone arm wiring. That might be an op amp with good RF characterists also, since they seem to be getting faster everytime I read a new data sheet.
Man I wish I could do that much engineering analysis from picture of a part without a part number. I'm just not that smart.
peranders said:
They will just have to sell them over here I guess. I thought the whole point of the CE approval was to keep European products from having to compete with American products. The 0.1 uf ceramics parked right next to the op amp seems like pretty good high frequency decoupling. It's an analog circuit that shouldn't radiate RFI and most of the RFI pick up is often from the cartridge and tone arm wiring. That might be an op amp with good RF characterists also, since they seem to be getting faster everytime I read a new data sheet.
Man I wish I could do that much engineering analysis from picture of a part without a part number. I'm just not that smart.
Fred:
>Mechanical noise is an issue for low level circuits and hot melt glue is excellent for damping and probably adds significantly to the sonics.<
I've tried hot-melt and other types of damping on high-gain circuit boards, and I have to say that I never subjectively cared for the results. Based on my own experience, I may consider using component damping in a speaker crossover, and perhaps also for part of the output stage of a power amp, but most probably not for low-level circuits.
>The enclosure is attractive and sets it apart from other products in it's price range.<
I've seen a number of speakers and wood-based audio products run into problems in Japan, Taiwan and Hongkong. Now when I see wood used in an audio product designed to be sold world-wide, the potential for cracks and warpage (and RFI pickup) come immediately to mind. Perhaps the RA1 doesn't have any cabinetry problems, but my experience with that type of construction makes me a little wary. And conductive paint as RFI treatment may not be sufficient in some environments.
>Designing very good products in high end audio at reasonable prices is often more of a challenge than expensive products with practically unlimited parts budgets.<
Trust me, whether the production budget is $100, $1000, or over $10,000, it _always_ feels limited. Whether you are designing a cheap product or an expensive one, the point is to wrack your brains and come up with a design and production method that squeezes the biggest perceived value out of whatever the budget may happen to be. That is the challenge, and that is what makes it all fun. A bigger budget doesn't necessarily make the design and engineering process any more entertaining or rewarding.
regards, jonathan carr
>Mechanical noise is an issue for low level circuits and hot melt glue is excellent for damping and probably adds significantly to the sonics.<
I've tried hot-melt and other types of damping on high-gain circuit boards, and I have to say that I never subjectively cared for the results. Based on my own experience, I may consider using component damping in a speaker crossover, and perhaps also for part of the output stage of a power amp, but most probably not for low-level circuits.
>The enclosure is attractive and sets it apart from other products in it's price range.<
I've seen a number of speakers and wood-based audio products run into problems in Japan, Taiwan and Hongkong. Now when I see wood used in an audio product designed to be sold world-wide, the potential for cracks and warpage (and RFI pickup) come immediately to mind. Perhaps the RA1 doesn't have any cabinetry problems, but my experience with that type of construction makes me a little wary. And conductive paint as RFI treatment may not be sufficient in some environments.
>Designing very good products in high end audio at reasonable prices is often more of a challenge than expensive products with practically unlimited parts budgets.<
Trust me, whether the production budget is $100, $1000, or over $10,000, it _always_ feels limited. Whether you are designing a cheap product or an expensive one, the point is to wrack your brains and come up with a design and production method that squeezes the biggest perceived value out of whatever the budget may happen to be. That is the challenge, and that is what makes it all fun. A bigger budget doesn't necessarily make the design and engineering process any more entertaining or rewarding.
regards, jonathan carr
Good for you Fred that America has a very good RF environment and/or all electronic equipment have no problems with RF.
Seriously Fred, you are joking, right? Sure you are because you know what RFI and EMI is all about?
EMI and RFI is everywhere all the time. This is mostly the only thing I'm worry about.
Seriously Fred, you are joking, right? Sure you are because you know what RFI and EMI is all about?
EMI and RFI is everywhere all the time. This is mostly the only thing I'm worry about.
You have to be Carrful of who you mess with
I have to admit to finding in agreement with just about everything you said. I can't argue with all of you here. Some are just too smart and have too much experience. And besides Mr. Carr, you are such a good sport when I know there are times you would like, like the rest of the forum membership, to strangle me. I agree it is possible to over damp PCBs and passive parts and it sucks the life out of the music so bad it puts even an insomniac like me to sleep. I had a digital cable protype with Karo syrup between the teflon cable and PVC outer tubing sleeve that was better than sleeping pills for putting me out. Phono cartridges, tone arms, and turntables are at least an order of magnitude worse than passive components about damping. I once heard the difference in putting a two square inch piece of damping material ( several layers of very thin lead foil and PVC) on the motor housing of a 150 pound floor standing turntable with a massive decoupled motor mount assembly. It ruined the sound since the designer had so carefully design the damping for the turntable. I still can't believe it when a think about it and we did blind listening test where he did not tell us when he was applying the damping. I once read that a reviewer was criticizing the image of a Mid Fi integrated amp. The Rep from the company took off the volume knob loosened the nut holding the volume pot a quarter of a turn and put the knob back on. The reviewer was amazed by the change in the sound stage after telling the Rep that there was no way that was going to change the sound. I laughed my butt off when I read that, but I am not so sure anymore that wasn't exactly what happened.
I have to admit to finding in agreement with just about everything you said. I can't argue with all of you here. Some are just too smart and have too much experience. And besides Mr. Carr, you are such a good sport when I know there are times you would like, like the rest of the forum membership, to strangle me. I agree it is possible to over damp PCBs and passive parts and it sucks the life out of the music so bad it puts even an insomniac like me to sleep. I had a digital cable protype with Karo syrup between the teflon cable and PVC outer tubing sleeve that was better than sleeping pills for putting me out. Phono cartridges, tone arms, and turntables are at least an order of magnitude worse than passive components about damping. I once heard the difference in putting a two square inch piece of damping material ( several layers of very thin lead foil and PVC) on the motor housing of a 150 pound floor standing turntable with a massive decoupled motor mount assembly. It ruined the sound since the designer had so carefully design the damping for the turntable. I still can't believe it when a think about it and we did blind listening test where he did not tell us when he was applying the damping. I once read that a reviewer was criticizing the image of a Mid Fi integrated amp. The Rep from the company took off the volume knob loosened the nut holding the volume pot a quarter of a turn and put the knob back on. The reviewer was amazed by the change in the sound stage after telling the Rep that there was no way that was going to change the sound. I laughed my butt off when I read that, but I am not so sure anymore that wasn't exactly what happened.
>And besides Mr. Carr, you are such a good sport when I know there are times you would like, like the rest of the forum membership, to strangle me.<
No, Fred. I've never once thought that. Despite how much I may like to believe in my own abilities and experience, I am far too fallible and too narrow of vision to survive without advice and insights from others. There's always a different way of looking at things, something else to learn, and someone who can either teach you something new, or give you enough of a hint so that you can at least figure out a plausible answer on your own.
At heart I'll always be a student, and a student should be grateful for his opportunities to learn, and respectful of his teachers.
Strangle? No way. But if I ever give you something to listen to, it may be a good idea to put on rubber gloves before touching it, just in case.
best regards, jonathan carr
No, Fred. I've never once thought that. Despite how much I may like to believe in my own abilities and experience, I am far too fallible and too narrow of vision to survive without advice and insights from others. There's always a different way of looking at things, something else to learn, and someone who can either teach you something new, or give you enough of a hint so that you can at least figure out a plausible answer on your own.
At heart I'll always be a student, and a student should be grateful for his opportunities to learn, and respectful of his teachers.
Strangle? No way. But if I ever give you something to listen to, it may be a good idea to put on rubber gloves before touching it, just in case.
best regards, jonathan carr
We are not worthy.......
'There's always a different way of looking at things, something else to learn"
Like not making the same mistakes as your competition...... looking at some thing that has some glaring annoyance but does other things pretty well.
It is sort of like the sculptor's response to an admirer that asked how he did it. " You chip away everything that doesn't look like a horse."
'There's always a different way of looking at things, something else to learn"
Like not making the same mistakes as your competition...... looking at some thing that has some glaring annoyance but does other things pretty well.
It is sort of like the sculptor's response to an admirer that asked how he did it. " You chip away everything that doesn't look like a horse."
I kind of miss that site, with production pics: http://www.connoisseurdefinitions.com/
it was a source of great inspiration to me, and I didn't make copies of those pics
I also agree that Grado preamp, although looking solid and simple, might not perform well in unfriendly climate zone, something I never thought about.
it was a source of great inspiration to me, and I didn't make copies of those pics
I also agree that Grado preamp, although looking solid and simple, might not perform well in unfriendly climate zone, something I never thought about.
I should say that these are not pictures of my amp, they were posted by a member named Manta over at Head-Fi (I specifically asked his permission to post them). Don't know why it didn't occur to me to say that in the first place.
I am 99.9% sure that the opamp is a JRC NJR4556 (datasheet: http://www.njr.co.jp/pdf/ae/ae04051.pdf ), which is also used on Grado's RA-1. Fairly mediocre opamp as opamps go, but seems to work well in my RA-1. Mouser lists them for US$0.29 (yes, 29 cents). I'd also venture to guess that the C1 caps are the same 5.1uF [probably Solens, but then again the markings are gone, so i can't be sure] used in the RA-1.
I am 99.9% sure that the opamp is a JRC NJR4556 (datasheet: http://www.njr.co.jp/pdf/ae/ae04051.pdf ), which is also used on Grado's RA-1. Fairly mediocre opamp as opamps go, but seems to work well in my RA-1. Mouser lists them for US$0.29 (yes, 29 cents). I'd also venture to guess that the C1 caps are the same 5.1uF [probably Solens, but then again the markings are gone, so i can't be sure] used in the RA-1.
If you are looking for a good op amp based phono stage, this is the circuit to built: http://www.users.nac.net/markowitzgd/phonopre.html
You'll find more info in this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9628&highlight=phono
You'll find more info in this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9628&highlight=phono
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