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Old 12th October 2011, 05:25 PM   #11
cbdb is offline cbdb  Canada
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Your pictures are not clear, but I'm 99% sure these are the same Fake I purchased on the chinese eBay
Then Kenwood was buying fake caps 15 years ago. I doubt it.

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cbdb, if that Kenwood amp is 15+ years in age I would be very reluctant in reusing those caps
Why? I was using them, the tranny and the bridge to give me some power to start playing around. I will probably start with testing the power supply, including the caps.
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Old 13th October 2011, 12:06 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by cbdb View Post
Then Kenwood was buying fake caps 15 years ago. I doubt it.
I was replying to bartmalow (remember... that's his thread....)
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Old 19th October 2011, 10:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Lazybutt View Post
I was replying to bartmalow (remember... that's his thread....)
Thanks Lazybutt,
I paid unfortunately a little bit more for my set (around 14).
Fortunately I have already allocation for those caps
I bought some opamps from the same guy, also very cheap .
i.e: I paid 4 for a set of 2 OPA627AU where on farnell or mouser they cost minimum 15 for one . I presume they are also fake however they sound quite good to me, but not as good as I expected from these opamps. Does any one know where I can get opa627 cheaper than in farnell but still original?
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Old 26th October 2011, 09:25 PM   #14
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A bit later then promissed, but hereby some pics to show how you can indentify a (probably) fake Elna. The one the left is a genuine Elna LPO Tonerex.

As I said earlier, the following observations can be made:

- 73V does not exist across the LAO/LPO/Tonerex series (71V does)
- the gold printing is much lighter (higher bling-bling factor)
- the character spacing between is much less
- the can size (30 x 50) does not exist in that capacity range (it should be 35 x 50 for @ 71 V)
- the manufacturing country is missing; the data sheets and my genuine Elna have Thailand or Japan printed on them
- the font type for the word 'Tonerex' is different (other series with 'For Audio' should have same font as the tonerex on the left here)
- the snap-in terminals are longer
- the sword-shaped vent rupture groove is not across the whole diameter, actually not even nicely in the middle
- the sword-shaped vent rupture lines seem 'stamped' afterwards (deformed surface inwards), as where the genuine cap is really deep square groove

On ebay, the first thing to check is the can size: Elna has mostly unique can sizes for given capacity/voltage. There are many close lookalikes which have dimensions that do not exist in the Elna datasheets.

PS; the fake 'Kenwood' model below is still on sale with HK ebayer, and there are several other 'Denon' and 'Marantz' ones, in fancy blue colors.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by AmpliFire; 26th October 2011 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 26th October 2011, 10:32 PM   #15
Legis is offline Legis  Finland
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Originally Posted by AmpliFire View Post
Hi,

Well.... I recently purchased a very versatile LCRZ meter which allows me to measure from 40Hz to 200 Khz all wanted cap properties
Hi, could you tell what meter did you buy and how much did it cost? I would love to own one of those...

Regards,

Legis
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Old 27th October 2011, 06:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Legis View Post
Hi, could you tell what meter did you buy and how much did it cost? I would love to own one of those...

Regards,

Legis
I bought this one, which pleases me a lot to work with. And the seller is to be recommended; there were some issues with the stability due to rough shipment, and he provided full support and replacement, very good folks to deal with. Beside the wide frequency range, you can also put up to 35V DC bias (external), which can make quite a difference for caps at work (even essential for tantalum caps, which don't like the minust reverese voltage). Of course this unit is not an Hewlett Packard or the like; but I don't have the budget for those. After searching for months, this was the only one I found providing large frequency span within my budget.

I will put some test results up tonight of the caps above.

Last edited by AmpliFire; 27th October 2011 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 27th October 2011, 11:10 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by AmpliFire View Post
A bit later then promissed, but hereby some pics to show how you can indentify a (probably) fake Elna.
Hey thanks! very useful post.
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Old 27th October 2011, 01:40 PM   #18
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A word of caution on capacitor size, however... Elna and others also produce OEM type capacitors, with Kenwood, Sony, etc, own specifications, so there could be some OEM capacitors not exactly the same size as standard ones.
Also, the gold exact color can vary from batch to batch...

But it's true that with 30% less volume for the same energy storage capacity, is very suspicious, and there are so many "For Audio" out there that most must be fake

To conclude, what do you think of these...? they have the longer snap in pins are you pointed out, the flashy blue color, but they have the "Thailand" marking, and are sold from a reputable seller.....
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Old 27th October 2011, 02:11 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Lazybutt View Post
To conclude, what do you think of these...? they have the longer snap in pins are you pointed out, the flashy blue color, but they have the "Thailand" marking, and are sold from a reputable seller.....
Thanks for putting those pics up, the labelling looks good.

Well, have look at the datasheets (download from here, too large to attach). 50V-15000uF exist (type I only though), but are they 35 x 50 (diameter x height) sized? This is what I meant, it's easy to put a fake sheet around another cap which looks very much like an Elna, but it is hard to find Elna can dimensions if you want to fake one....

In the end, to be sure, you have to measure their properties. Will come back later on that.

But I agree that it is likely that Elna makes OEM caps, but why with different can size? At least your printing looks reasonable genuine (verify with data sheets), but mine is obviously off spec....

PS: and if I was in the counterfeit business, I would also print Denon, Marantz etc on it... I have seen your blue babies with 'Denon' printed on them, which is something else as 'Thailand'

EDIT: how does the top of yours look like (is the rupture groove across the whole diameter?).

Last edited by AmpliFire; 27th October 2011 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 27th October 2011, 09:57 PM   #20
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Hereby the test results. I leave it in the middle if the 'Kenwood' is a fake or genuine, but as the results show: the 'Kenwood' has much less performance and some odd behaviour I would not like to find in one of my amps.

Now, with a lot of caution before I get shot here.... normally (when measuring small caps), the properties (ESR, phase, DF) get better with increasing rated working voltage, while these results show the opposite. Then again, this may also be due to the fact of different foil inside the capacitors. The genuine LPO has almost 50% extra can volume at lower rated working voltage, hence thicker foil. So by definition it's comparing two different caps....

I would also like to demonstrate that ESR meters with single or double test frequencies (mostly at 100 Hz and/or 1 khz) are not a really useful, most caps (incl. fake caps) will test well as the graphs show, but not the cap behaviour over the audio frequency spectrum.

First capacity from 40 Hz to 40 kHz, the 'resonating peak' is where impedance and ESR become equal (as shown further down), and where the phase shift between current and voltage becomes 0 degrees (as shown further down).

Click the image to open in full size.

Followed by ESR and |Z|; The genuine Elna LPO has a nice flat ESR of 10 mOhm (which is VERY good; many VERY expensive caps score worse!), while the 'kenwood' cap has double ESR of around 20 mOhm (while 'normally' higher working voltage and capacity results in lower ESR at low frequencies, so I consider the 'kenwood' cap at least 4 times worse).

Click the image to open in full size.

Followed by phase shift; in case of coupling caps this would mean very non-linear behaviour, but this is much less an issue for power supply buffer caps which act primairily as a current source (though I still have to research that statement made by a knowledgeable friend, so don't shoot me). When crossing 0 degrees, the cap becomes in theory an inductor. IMO, that must have an impact on the amp performance.

Click the image to open in full size.

Finalised by the dissipation factors (tan delta) which is the result of the performances here-above.

Click the image to open in full size.
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