Well, actually that was my problem too.. So I wonder if those sonic aspect can be measured in some way. Since distortion doesn't seem to be of any help.Perhaps I'm wrong assuming that any phenomenon less than 100db below avarage output is of no consequence to sound quality.
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It’s subtle that’s for sure.My observation as described only has one of the “distorting” components in one (digital power supply) position, not everywhere...Easy to assume otherwise, and realism seems to be a blend of different distortion from what I have experienced.
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Yes, it can.
It is only one of the parameter that doesn't work well by itself.
Theoretically, it may be so. But remember that the measurement is for a given set of conditions that may not or never be met in practice.
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Another thing that was mentioned here, but not totally explained, about problems that might arise from using a series resistor between bridge and capacitor, and perhaps then another R/C before regulator.
What problems might be that? Ripple noise is certainly diminished, so what is wrong there?
Another thing to clean the "diodes act" are snubbers, that should be really resistor + capacitor bypass for each capacitor, not just a capacitor.
Wouldn't all that affect PS capacitors distortion, which seems to be the core of this discussion?
What problems might be that? Ripple noise is certainly diminished, so what is wrong there?
Another thing to clean the "diodes act" are snubbers, that should be really resistor + capacitor bypass for each capacitor, not just a capacitor.
Wouldn't all that affect PS capacitors distortion, which seems to be the core of this discussion?
The problem with RLC circuit is, you don't have rule of thumbs. Just like any filter or crossovers, the Math is more important than quality parts.
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Ben Duncan did use such R/C filters on his high quality preamp power supply, a series published in the lat '80s in the UK Hi-Fi News $ Record Review mag.
Many people that abhor voltage regulators, particularly on tubes, prefer using a long chain of R/Cs or L/Cs for the power supply.
Many people that abhor voltage regulators, particularly on tubes, prefer using a long chain of R/Cs or L/Cs for the power supply.
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The Quasimodo metering published here in DIYAudio seems like a very accurate way of getting the right capacitor for transformer's snubbers. Though I don't think it can be used for snubbering diodes
I mean this type of caps
100uf 100V ELECTROLYTIC AXIAL CAPACITOR-MFR PHILIPS-(LOT OF 2 PIECES) | eBay
100uf 100V ELECTROLYTIC AXIAL CAPACITOR-MFR PHILIPS-(LOT OF 2 PIECES) | eBay
Noise is only one part of the parameters. Impedance is another one. If you study the 'progress' of the active regulators by Jung and friends, you can see how RC filter is initially used for pre-regulation, but it didn't stay long. The last version by Jung was smarter but not good enough imo. You can very easily removed noise from power supply, usually with consequences such as high non-linier impedance, noises from the ICs, zeners and resistors in the regulators, and I think an effect of HF disturbance on distortion profiles.
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They discontinued it Vishay - 123 SAL-A - Aluminum Capacitors Solid Axial All other axial caps from bcomponents have modern covering no classic covering like Philips.
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MAL211815102E3 Vishay BC Components | Capacitors | DigiKey
Picture in digikey show something else image but Vishay datasheet show another .
Picture in digikey show something else image but Vishay datasheet show another .
How would you outsmart Jung's version of his regulator? What was wrong with it?In any case, I think his major concern was output impedance, and perhaps potential oscillations due to some chips he was using first, like the AD797. But I'm not sure how the impedance question is when you apply filtering before the regulators. He also applied a feedback principle to solve the regulator and regulated device, which I'm not sure how it influenced other things. You couldn't use other capacitor values than those specified, even if I'm not sure the capacitor's choice was the best.
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What an electronics expert often miss is how the measurement result affects sound perception. There is no book on this subject. You add an RC filter and you measure less noise. But then you hear degradation in sound quality and you start to ask why. But if you can't hear the degradation you don't ask why, even when many people are complaining with the sound degradation. And you are wondering why people do not want to use your design.
If you try to improve the Jung regulator version along the same path, you will come to a conclusion that high quality parts must be used such as low noise voltage reference chip and ultra low distortion op-amp. But the op-amp itself has issues (with perception) which is hard to solve (HF stability).
If you try different ideas such as a shunt regulator, you may or may not solve the problem. Same low noise, low impedance, and what is more important is you think the sound is better.
I know a very rare information regarding many ways an NFB can affect sound perception in an amplifier. I don't know about PS but I think it is not different (the concept). Without knowing this, using feedback is like using a double-sided sword.
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Hi johnego,
At this point I would advise that you walk very carefully around what Walt Jung does and doesn't do. This isn't an official moderator warning, just as a member. Walt I know does listen carefully when he designs anything and he literally wrote the book on op amp applications. The man has actually forgotten more than most here know about audio design. Scott is another one of these people who you really shouldn't get into a debate with either. He designed many op amps and knows them a lot better than any other designer can lay claim to except for another designer of linear integrated circuits. There are others with a similar knowledge base and I have learned 99.999999% of everything I know from these people. I think the only thing I learned about op amps myself is just how hot they can get when powered in reverse from a high current supply. So John, their shadows around here are long and dark. Best to check with them before making comments like you have recently.
Face it, we are all outclassed and outgunned in a battle of knowledge with these guys!
-Chris
At this point I would advise that you walk very carefully around what Walt Jung does and doesn't do. This isn't an official moderator warning, just as a member. Walt I know does listen carefully when he designs anything and he literally wrote the book on op amp applications. The man has actually forgotten more than most here know about audio design. Scott is another one of these people who you really shouldn't get into a debate with either. He designed many op amps and knows them a lot better than any other designer can lay claim to except for another designer of linear integrated circuits. There are others with a similar knowledge base and I have learned 99.999999% of everything I know from these people. I think the only thing I learned about op amps myself is just how hot they can get when powered in reverse from a high current supply. So John, their shadows around here are long and dark. Best to check with them before making comments like you have recently.
Face it, we are all outclassed and outgunned in a battle of knowledge with these guys!-Chris
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Is super low noise super low z regs really that good ? Me thinks like caps, it really depends on where it’s being use, there’s also the issue of over shoot due to regs transients response which might end up a double edge sword where one has to add a higher esr cap to damp the overshoot. Besides like my old school tda 1541 dac, any of todays off the shelf linear regs are quieter then the noise in the dac itself. This again is another thread to discuss, is linear or shunt regs etc better ? From my tweaking habits , same as caps depends where its being use.
Hi sumotan,
Yes. Noise in the power supply tends to end up in the output of your circuit. Even if your DAC isn't as quiet as the power supply, that is still less noise to hear. Whether you can hear this is up to you. As is the question about how important this is to you.
When I switched from one turntable to a Thorens TD-125 MKII, I was stunned by the lack of low frequency noise. The noise level of the previous turntable was also below the level if the cartridge and electronics, but boy did it ever make a difference! I didn't even know it was a problem earlier.
So the same thing might possibly apply to you with your DAC. Only you can be the judge. And it rather depends on the quality of the analogue stages that follow the DAC chip.
-Chris
Yes. Noise in the power supply tends to end up in the output of your circuit. Even if your DAC isn't as quiet as the power supply, that is still less noise to hear. Whether you can hear this is up to you. As is the question about how important this is to you.
When I switched from one turntable to a Thorens TD-125 MKII, I was stunned by the lack of low frequency noise. The noise level of the previous turntable was also below the level if the cartridge and electronics, but boy did it ever make a difference! I didn't even know it was a problem earlier.
So the same thing might possibly apply to you with your DAC. Only you can be the judge. And it rather depends on the quality of the analogue stages that follow the DAC chip.
-Chris