I do not know of any reason why not. I use the Litz because, just as for Audio Cables I build, I can use a minimum amount of dielectric material and thereby control how much dynamic color retention I provide to a particular device.
For my own purposes the Litz is very suitable, but others have already shown that almost any type of wire provides a benefit for speakers.
Bud
For my own purposes the Litz is very suitable, but others have already shown that almost any type of wire provides a benefit for speakers.
Bud
Hi all
anybody who has systematically tried:
- is there a benefit of attaching the pigtails / loops at input *and* output of a device (preamp / amp / mixing console)?
- is there a benefit of attaching the pigtails / loops at *both* ends of a line or speaker cable?
Thanks for any impressions.
Michael
anybody who has systematically tried:
- is there a benefit of attaching the pigtails / loops at input *and* output of a device (preamp / amp / mixing console)?
- is there a benefit of attaching the pigtails / loops at *both* ends of a line or speaker cable?
Thanks for any impressions.
Michael
Hi Michael,
This post , actually originally an email to me that I have permission to post, is the only rigorous investigation to date. The rest of us are just not patient enough.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1756617#post1756617
To date the only truly neutral reply comes from a fellow who actually has a poured ground plane in his preamp. He could find no change in activity with the loops. I think this just shows how "starved" modern electronics are on the ground side. Once they have adequate support, they sound quite good, even cheap implementations of Red Book CD.
Bud
This post , actually originally an email to me that I have permission to post, is the only rigorous investigation to date. The rest of us are just not patient enough.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1756617#post1756617
To date the only truly neutral reply comes from a fellow who actually has a poured ground plane in his preamp. He could find no change in activity with the loops. I think this just shows how "starved" modern electronics are on the ground side. Once they have adequate support, they sound quite good, even cheap implementations of Red Book CD.
Bud
Thanks Bud - yes I've already read the entire thread - very interesting his experience on "toweled copper film".
Another question I wonder if there is an answer for:
- anybody who tried to connect the loops with low (one digit range) resistors and could report his impressions of change / no change compared to zero resistance connection ?
Michael
Another question I wonder if there is an answer for:
- anybody who tried to connect the loops with low (one digit range) resistors and could report his impressions of change / no change compared to zero resistance connection ?
Michael
Michael,
In answer to your first two questions.
I typically use loops at both ends of a cable, when connecting speakers and amplifiers. They rarely have the same dielectric components applied to them. All of the other connections rely upon most equipment having a common ground for input and output of the piece of gear.
So, there is usually just one, for both channels, in a preamp, unless the channels are kept separate at ground potential too, then there are one per ground, usually right at the ground lug of the RCA jack, for convenience. This does mean that there are loops at both ends of every interconnect, assuming that input and output grounds are connected together.
The cotton, being a very low dielectric constant would not be expected to provide a change in sound quality. However, when used as a sleeve for a loop, mounted directly on a speaker negative lug, some speakers show a negative effect and some a positive one.
The recent Beta 8a drivers sound much clearer with Litz wire, no dielectric shrink tubing pieces and no cotton tube either. It was not a big difference on the cotton, just an irritating fuzz to tones when applied. The shrink tubing was an obvious smear in the time of transients with no effect upon tones.
An up coming set of aluminum cones will not tolerate the shrink wrap pieces either, but sound clearer with the cotton tube on the Litz loop than with it off.
So, once again a rather specific application set with no obvious reason why one "sounds" superior to another.
The only passive component attachment I know of has been with very small value capacitors attached to drain shields for interconnects. No reports of resistors yet. The capacitors were deemed beneficial enough to incorporate on a constant basis.
Bud
In answer to your first two questions.
I typically use loops at both ends of a cable, when connecting speakers and amplifiers. They rarely have the same dielectric components applied to them. All of the other connections rely upon most equipment having a common ground for input and output of the piece of gear.
So, there is usually just one, for both channels, in a preamp, unless the channels are kept separate at ground potential too, then there are one per ground, usually right at the ground lug of the RCA jack, for convenience. This does mean that there are loops at both ends of every interconnect, assuming that input and output grounds are connected together.
The cotton, being a very low dielectric constant would not be expected to provide a change in sound quality. However, when used as a sleeve for a loop, mounted directly on a speaker negative lug, some speakers show a negative effect and some a positive one.
The recent Beta 8a drivers sound much clearer with Litz wire, no dielectric shrink tubing pieces and no cotton tube either. It was not a big difference on the cotton, just an irritating fuzz to tones when applied. The shrink tubing was an obvious smear in the time of transients with no effect upon tones.
An up coming set of aluminum cones will not tolerate the shrink wrap pieces either, but sound clearer with the cotton tube on the Litz loop than with it off.
So, once again a rather specific application set with no obvious reason why one "sounds" superior to another.
The only passive component attachment I know of has been with very small value capacitors attached to drain shields for interconnects. No reports of resistors yet. The capacitors were deemed beneficial enough to incorporate on a constant basis.
Bud
Hi Simon,
You can PM if you like. I assume you have read the Beta 8a treatment description, but if not, please go here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1821202#post1821202
I am waiting for Gary Pimm's response to the pair I sent him. Perhaps I will call and bug him today.
Bud
You can PM if you like. I assume you have read the Beta 8a treatment description, but if not, please go here,
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1821202#post1821202
I am waiting for Gary Pimm's response to the pair I sent him. Perhaps I will call and bug him today.
Bud
BudP said:
Hi Bud,
I had not seen this post, wow, this makes me very excited! And it's super-useful. I'm still working out how to turn my tweeter waveguides but when I get those done I can start listening to things and I'll be sure to report...
Did you use Electron Pools on the Beta 8A?
Thanks,
Simon
Hi Simon,
Yes I did use electron pools. I ended up with bare loops of wire, no shrink tubes or cotton, as the drivers responded to both negatively.
In a general sense they have probably twice more low level coherence than I have found from any other driver, ever. This means that echos in rooms, tiny whispers of inbreath from choruses and groups of individuals singing, rather than large "chorals" of averaged voices, become very clearly available from these drivers.
You may have to investigate EnABLing your wave guides and high frequency driver surfaces, just to keep up with the extraordinary amount of information these Beta 8's will provide, once unleashed.
Gary Pimm says he intends to do some detailed testing on the drivers this week, along with other Beta 8's he has on hand, so that will be very interesting.
Bud
Yes I did use electron pools. I ended up with bare loops of wire, no shrink tubes or cotton, as the drivers responded to both negatively.
In a general sense they have probably twice more low level coherence than I have found from any other driver, ever. This means that echos in rooms, tiny whispers of inbreath from choruses and groups of individuals singing, rather than large "chorals" of averaged voices, become very clearly available from these drivers.
You may have to investigate EnABLing your wave guides and high frequency driver surfaces, just to keep up with the extraordinary amount of information these Beta 8's will provide, once unleashed.
Gary Pimm says he intends to do some detailed testing on the drivers this week, along with other Beta 8's he has on hand, so that will be very interesting.
Bud
OK, on researching Litz wire and skin effect, what I read suggests 30-33 AWG strands for the audio spectrum, but Bud mentions 140 strand/40 AWG Litz. Can someone educate me on how to choose and why? Maybe it's less about audio spectrum in the ground side, but since that's the range we're all interested in, why wouldn't that be the wire of choice? And if I used 30-33 AWG Litz (one run of 30, one of 33 to cover the audio spectrum?) is it important to approximate an equivalent cumulative AWG to the 140/40?
I may experiment some with this, but at the cost of Litz, probably not a lot.
Thanks,
Carl
I may experiment some with this, but at the cost of Litz, probably not a lot.
Thanks,
Carl
I use the 140 strands of #40 only because I happen to have it on hand from our transformer company. To experiment to find out if anything can come from this odd notion lamp cord is adequate.
Using the huge surface area that the Litz I work with provides, allows me to use very small amounts of low dielectric constant plastic (typically polyethylene shrink tube) to help modify the response of drivers, in the realm I call dynamic color. A superficial category that ranges from a highly detailed, but very clinical and boring Brownian noise equivalent presentation, to that of a circus band. As an example, I use more dielectric material in the EP's for the Fostex F120 and 200 A, than I would in any Lowther driver.
If you dig back a few pages you will find some clever ways of making a Litz wire equivalent, with two nails and a solder pot.
But first, just find some lamp cord, cut off a 2/3 meter length of one half of the cheap cable, strip back the insulation a few inches, on both ends, make a loop, twist the copper strands together and slip it into the appropriate binding post hole on your negative terminal for amplifier or speaker. This will NOT provide you with a finished product, but can be the basis for some experimentation and an indication to you of whether or not to bother getting more involved.
Bud
Using the huge surface area that the Litz I work with provides, allows me to use very small amounts of low dielectric constant plastic (typically polyethylene shrink tube) to help modify the response of drivers, in the realm I call dynamic color. A superficial category that ranges from a highly detailed, but very clinical and boring Brownian noise equivalent presentation, to that of a circus band. As an example, I use more dielectric material in the EP's for the Fostex F120 and 200 A, than I would in any Lowther driver.
If you dig back a few pages you will find some clever ways of making a Litz wire equivalent, with two nails and a solder pot.
But first, just find some lamp cord, cut off a 2/3 meter length of one half of the cheap cable, strip back the insulation a few inches, on both ends, make a loop, twist the copper strands together and slip it into the appropriate binding post hole on your negative terminal for amplifier or speaker. This will NOT provide you with a finished product, but can be the basis for some experimentation and an indication to you of whether or not to bother getting more involved.
Bud
fumadiddle
Actually has been tried, with a report of success. Very small amount, in the less than 20pf range, but I cannot divulge more than that as it is in a commercial product. So, try it out, report back, worst that can happen is nothing. Just remember not to connect it across both terminals as that will very definitely change the sound of the speaker
Simonty,
I am going to assume you meant that you had installed a binding post per chassis and only intend connection to the return side of the speaker connections. This will be a very interesting comparison test, as the "Ancients" made this connection on a regular basis.
Bud
Actually has been tried, with a report of success. Very small amount, in the less than 20pf range, but I cannot divulge more than that as it is in a commercial product. So, try it out, report back, worst that can happen is nothing. Just remember not to connect it across both terminals as that will very definitely change the sound of the speaker
Simonty,
I am going to assume you meant that you had installed a binding post per chassis and only intend connection to the return side of the speaker connections. This will be a very interesting comparison test, as the "Ancients" made this connection on a regular basis.
Bud
Caps as pools
Thanks Bud,
I'll try some small caps tomorrow. Right now I've just attached about 20 inches of extension cord wire to each neutral terminal on my amp.
I've wired my speaker wire directly onto the Horns drivers. Should I wire the neutral terminal to the basket as well as add the pools, or just do one or the other?
While I'm picking your brain and everyone else's, I would like to get your notion of another idea I have. I want to attach 20 inches of Oyaide Across 2000 speaker cable to the ends of my current speaker cable and attach the Oyaide cable to the Horns' drivers. This is on the principle that the last bit of wire will tend to make the entire cable sound like the last bit. Whaddya' think? I'm using DIY White Lightning speaker cables.
Oh, I was writing as fumadiddle in the earlier post.
Thanks Bud,
I'll try some small caps tomorrow. Right now I've just attached about 20 inches of extension cord wire to each neutral terminal on my amp.
I've wired my speaker wire directly onto the Horns drivers. Should I wire the neutral terminal to the basket as well as add the pools, or just do one or the other?
While I'm picking your brain and everyone else's, I would like to get your notion of another idea I have. I want to attach 20 inches of Oyaide Across 2000 speaker cable to the ends of my current speaker cable and attach the Oyaide cable to the Horns' drivers. This is on the principle that the last bit of wire will tend to make the entire cable sound like the last bit. Whaddya' think? I'm using DIY White Lightning speaker cables.
Oh, I was writing as fumadiddle in the earlier post.
mige0 said:
Michael, I'll be sure to post about these tests on here. They'll be lightly modified Marantz MA-500 mono power amps, very much solid state. Speakers will be 3-way open baffle, all passive for now. Speaker cable is double Kimber 8TC. Anyway, we're a while off this!
BudP said:
Ancients - lol. A single black binding post directly into the metal frame of the driver, right where there was a suitable hole put in by the manufacturer. I will put a jumper wire from this to the return/ground of the speaker cable connection. As it's a post it'll be easy to unplug and compare. Then will come the pools!
Simon
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