Charles, a lot of bands do use mostly empty cabinets but there are many bands who use all of their cabinets for real.
Jacques, when you put that reference I have no problem with it and that is the most commonly used reference when dealing with sound pressure that is but, it's not even the only one that could be used.
I have a question for you about that. I really do not know the answer. I am not trying to be a wise guy or anything. I know that anytime you double the power that is a 3 dB power gain. Anytime you double the current or voltage that is a 6 dB current or voltage gain. When you double the SPL how much gain is that?
I just realized something I have wondered about since I began lurking here sometime back. I rarely think concerts are loud enough. Not for my personal taste anyway. I also think MOSSFET amplifiers are worthless. Now I realize why many of you guys do not think MOSFETTS are worthless. You don't like blistering loud music so MOSFETTS are great to you. To me they are horrible because I like really loud music. If you put a watt meter on a 1000 watt BJT amp and a 1000 watt MOSFET amp they will both say 1000 watts. Every way you can possibly measure those amps (with equipment) they will be equally "loud". But when you measure them with your ears the 1000 watt BJT amp is several times louder than a 1000 watt MOSFET amp but since you guys never crank your amps up loud enough to be able to tell the difference you probably didn't even know that MOSFETTS just will never "sound" loud and when I say loud I mean extremely loud. No MOSFETT amp has ever been nearly loud enough for me.
I have a Studio Master MOSFET 1000 power amp which is 1000 watts RMS. I also have an amp that has much greater apparent volume (it is louder to my ears) that is an old 70 watt tube amp built from a kit.
A tube amp will sound several times louder than a BJT amp of the same power also. A 100 watt tube guitar amp is louder than Satan to your ears. Several times louder than a 100 watt BJT amp but any kind of equipment you measure them will will say they are the same. And I guess they are the same "level" but the tube amp has a much greater apparent volume as far as your ears are concerned. Amps like Marshall Valvestates on 10 are quiet sounding to me (using the same speaker cabinet for both) but old all tube Marshalls of the same power, I could never even stand to hear on about 7. When anything is too loud for me it is insanely loud to most people and if they even survive it probably a health risk. I am not trying to tell anybody that they should listen to music as loud as I like to in fact it is probably better if you don't (although I do not appear to have suffered any hearing loss). I am just saying that I like it really loud and MOSFETS can't do it and I think I just figured out why some of you don't seem to realize that (or maybe just don't care?)
A lot of people mistake anything that is louder than they like with being distorted too. I am not saying that nothing out there is actually distorted but what is often accused of being distorted is simply louder than somebody likes. Not always but often.
Oh and to me the best sounding concerts are the ones in auditoriums rather than arenas. I think it makes more difference than the PA usually. They are designed and built for sound. More specifically designed so everybody in the place can hear well with no microphones or a PA. You do not need that big a PA to be loud as hell in one of those. Not just loud but also really good sound. Some arenas have better sound than others but none have good sound IMO. A lot of bands say Tarrant County Convention Center Arena in Fort Worth (14,000 seats) is the best sounding arena in the world and so a lot of bands have played the first date of their US tours there but even TCCA does not have very good acoustics.
I was not intending to write a book but I got carried away.
Jacques, when you put that reference I have no problem with it and that is the most commonly used reference when dealing with sound pressure that is but, it's not even the only one that could be used.
I have a question for you about that. I really do not know the answer. I am not trying to be a wise guy or anything. I know that anytime you double the power that is a 3 dB power gain. Anytime you double the current or voltage that is a 6 dB current or voltage gain. When you double the SPL how much gain is that?
I just realized something I have wondered about since I began lurking here sometime back. I rarely think concerts are loud enough. Not for my personal taste anyway. I also think MOSSFET amplifiers are worthless. Now I realize why many of you guys do not think MOSFETTS are worthless. You don't like blistering loud music so MOSFETTS are great to you. To me they are horrible because I like really loud music. If you put a watt meter on a 1000 watt BJT amp and a 1000 watt MOSFET amp they will both say 1000 watts. Every way you can possibly measure those amps (with equipment) they will be equally "loud". But when you measure them with your ears the 1000 watt BJT amp is several times louder than a 1000 watt MOSFET amp but since you guys never crank your amps up loud enough to be able to tell the difference you probably didn't even know that MOSFETTS just will never "sound" loud and when I say loud I mean extremely loud. No MOSFETT amp has ever been nearly loud enough for me.
I have a Studio Master MOSFET 1000 power amp which is 1000 watts RMS. I also have an amp that has much greater apparent volume (it is louder to my ears) that is an old 70 watt tube amp built from a kit.
A tube amp will sound several times louder than a BJT amp of the same power also. A 100 watt tube guitar amp is louder than Satan to your ears. Several times louder than a 100 watt BJT amp but any kind of equipment you measure them will will say they are the same. And I guess they are the same "level" but the tube amp has a much greater apparent volume as far as your ears are concerned. Amps like Marshall Valvestates on 10 are quiet sounding to me (using the same speaker cabinet for both) but old all tube Marshalls of the same power, I could never even stand to hear on about 7. When anything is too loud for me it is insanely loud to most people and if they even survive it probably a health risk. I am not trying to tell anybody that they should listen to music as loud as I like to in fact it is probably better if you don't (although I do not appear to have suffered any hearing loss). I am just saying that I like it really loud and MOSFETS can't do it and I think I just figured out why some of you don't seem to realize that (or maybe just don't care?)
A lot of people mistake anything that is louder than they like with being distorted too. I am not saying that nothing out there is actually distorted but what is often accused of being distorted is simply louder than somebody likes. Not always but often.
Oh and to me the best sounding concerts are the ones in auditoriums rather than arenas. I think it makes more difference than the PA usually. They are designed and built for sound. More specifically designed so everybody in the place can hear well with no microphones or a PA. You do not need that big a PA to be loud as hell in one of those. Not just loud but also really good sound. Some arenas have better sound than others but none have good sound IMO. A lot of bands say Tarrant County Convention Center Arena in Fort Worth (14,000 seats) is the best sounding arena in the world and so a lot of bands have played the first date of their US tours there but even TCCA does not have very good acoustics.
I was not intending to write a book but I got carried away.
That's the first i have heard that, interesting. On one of Manowar's DVD with a backstage tour narrated by the frontman Joey Demaio, he plays his bass through 20k watts on the stage, and the guitarist Karl Logan has 30k watts for his backline. The drummer Scott has more subwoofers for monitor that some band has for the PA. I guess those comments need to be taken with a lot of salt. Here's a pic of their stage. This is a smaller one, usually its 10 or 12 boxes per side.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._375615348238_529458238_3718386_7709115_n.jpg
I have been reading up recently on live sound and PA, thought this was a very interesting read.
Instrument EQ - Mik Fielding
I still think when we feel it's too loud, it's because of the increasing distortion as the sound system is pushed beyond its limits. Think about truly louds natural sounds, like a harley on full throttle, a thunderclap. Those are clean loud. A harley up close can be up to 130dB at full throttle. That's loud, but clean. We don't want to turn those down. We just feel our insides shake and think that's AWESOME!
The bands I have seen using dummy cabs in their backline are, in no particular order, Anthrax, Slayer, Metallica (3 times), Megadeth, Testament and UFO. There was also some danish band whose name I forgot but my ex-brother-in-law was their tour manager (he was also a good mate of Big Mick, Metallicas sound man) and picked up the dummies himself directly at the Marshall factory. In fact I have never seen or even heard of a metal band using only working cabs and I used to work for a company supplying lighting rigs and stage sets to almost all of them. Things like that become abundantly clear during the full stage rehearsals which precede every tour.
The thing is huge Marshall stacks are a status symbol for them like 'being from the ghetto' was for rappers and they do perpetuate the myth by claiming that they are all real. If they were the PA in most cases would be inaudible over the backline.
That was all during the mid- to late '80s, the heydays of metal.
During that time Marshall made as much money from selling dummies than they made from selling actual amps according to the Marshall employee my ex-brother-in-law dealt with.
Can't say anything about Man'o'war directly but if they actually do use what they claim they would all have been completely deaf a long time ago.
On this point I do agree, you do need enough headroom to avoid distortion and many bands are to cheap to pay for it!
As an aside a PA that distorts at say 126dBSPL will sound louder than one producing the same level at the same distance cleanly.
I use 6 4 x 12 cabinets and 2 100 watt heads and 1 50 watt head and every single cabinet has 4 speakers in it and they are all working. I actually play through 2 100 watt heads and 4 cabinets and the 50 watt head and two cabinets are a spare in case the other 2 go down. They never have though and I hope they never do because I hate 50 watt heads. They are just as loud as 100 watt heads though but they sound different. And I play mostly in small places. If I had more I would use it.
On the distortion I have to say this. If you have some all tube power amps for a PA then it won't hurt the sound if you have a little bit of distortion but I have not seen a all tube PA power amp in a long long time. As you gradually increase the power and therefore the distortion at some point it starts sounding bad but not at first. Then the sound gets worse and worse as you keep increasing it. Maybe the big time bands still use them. I am not sure. But with transistor power amps the second you push one hard enough to clip (distort) they sound terrible and I doubt many bands would run them like that. The sound does not gradually get bad. It goes from good to crap all at once. Anything digital does the same thing only many times worse. Even people who know nothing about music or equipment would notice how bad it sounded. Not to mention that there is really no way to do that without wasting equipment so the odds are if a band did they would blow some speakers, amps or both every night. It only takes 1 watt of dc to blow ANY speaker and when you clip the **** out out a signal it becomes dc at a point. Looks like square waves on a scope. It will blow amps too. Not tube amps though. It might if it got bad enough but I have never seen that happen. I have seen many amps and speakers blown to hell. I think Electro-Voice stopped their lifetime "blow this speaker and get a free new one for the rest of your life" because of me but mostly my friends because I learned my lesson and stopped blowing them up a long time ago but try convincing a bunch of musicians who know nothing about electronics how to avoid blowing them. You almost can't do it.
Man those top of the line EV's rule. I use them for everything except guitar speakers. They are awesome. You can hit them with 5 or 6 hundred unclipped watts no problem and they are only rated at 300 watts.
On the distortion I have to say this. If you have some all tube power amps for a PA then it won't hurt the sound if you have a little bit of distortion but I have not seen a all tube PA power amp in a long long time. As you gradually increase the power and therefore the distortion at some point it starts sounding bad but not at first. Then the sound gets worse and worse as you keep increasing it. Maybe the big time bands still use them. I am not sure. But with transistor power amps the second you push one hard enough to clip (distort) they sound terrible and I doubt many bands would run them like that. The sound does not gradually get bad. It goes from good to crap all at once. Anything digital does the same thing only many times worse. Even people who know nothing about music or equipment would notice how bad it sounded. Not to mention that there is really no way to do that without wasting equipment so the odds are if a band did they would blow some speakers, amps or both every night. It only takes 1 watt of dc to blow ANY speaker and when you clip the **** out out a signal it becomes dc at a point. Looks like square waves on a scope. It will blow amps too. Not tube amps though. It might if it got bad enough but I have never seen that happen. I have seen many amps and speakers blown to hell. I think Electro-Voice stopped their lifetime "blow this speaker and get a free new one for the rest of your life" because of me but mostly my friends because I learned my lesson and stopped blowing them up a long time ago but try convincing a bunch of musicians who know nothing about electronics how to avoid blowing them. You almost can't do it.
Man those top of the line EV's rule. I use them for everything except guitar speakers. They are awesome. You can hit them with 5 or 6 hundred unclipped watts no problem and they are only rated at 300 watts.
I heard Roger Waters do 'The Wall' a couple months ago in Toronto. Loud, but not too loud. They had an awfully big set up, really modern looking. Cleanest large venue sound I have heard. The music was moderately loud, but there was a ton of headroom - the show has a lot of theatrics and sound effects, and thats where you heard what it could really do. It was also multichannel. Sounds actually panned from front to back - first time I have ever experienced that at a concert. The video setup was also spectacular. Its an expensive show to see, but you get your moneys worth.
I was also blown away by the Tragically hip in a small concert hall. I was 3rd row, and it was loud as hell, but very clean and well balanced, no harshness. Helluva show too.
I was also blown away by the Tragically hip in a small concert hall. I was 3rd row, and it was loud as hell, but very clean and well balanced, no harshness. Helluva show too.
Quick test at your next concert. When it get really loud and nasty - put your fingers in your ears. Does the sound clean up? If yes, it's not the P.A. that's distorting - it's something else. Can you guess what?
I am not quite sure if you agree with me or disagree with me but my guess would be something inside your skull? Like maybe your predisposition to liking or disliking really loud music?
Whatever the answer is I have seen a lot of things that convince me a lot of it is in your head. I have seen people become physically sick because music was too loud for them and I know that loud music can't cause physical illness. It is all in their head. I have also noticed that music that people do not like does not have to be all that loud to upset them but they can handle music that they like a lot louder than that and enjoy it. Also, a lot of people who are really neurotic or paranoid can't handle loud music.
I have one question. When you guys talk about the amount of headroom at a concert how do you know how much headroom there is? I mean unless you are given control of the soundboard how can you tell how much headroom they have? It seems to me that completely clean with a massive amount of headroom and completely clean with barely any headroom sounds exactly the same so without access to the board I don't see how you could possibly know anything except that it was completely clean.
From my experience what can easily be taken to be distortion (assuming that by distortion we mean clipping) by a lot of people is actually not but it is the fault of the guy running the sound. Poor equalization is one major culprit. No equalization is not all that bad and it is way better than poor equalization. A really bad mix can do the same thing.
A BBE sonic maximizer on the PA can greatly enhance the sound if used correctly but too much of it (which is common to hear) can make it sound distorted but its actually not it just sounds terrible.
But the number one most common way that a person can wreck the sound so bad it will appear to be distorted is buy using an electronic crossover and deciding to experiment with the settings. I set mine up and glued the knobs so they can't be changed. Anytime anybody so much as touches one of those at the gig the sound will be destroyed. Unless the knobs are glued and they can't change anything.
Whatever the answer is I have seen a lot of things that convince me a lot of it is in your head. I have seen people become physically sick because music was too loud for them and I know that loud music can't cause physical illness. It is all in their head. I have also noticed that music that people do not like does not have to be all that loud to upset them but they can handle music that they like a lot louder than that and enjoy it. Also, a lot of people who are really neurotic or paranoid can't handle loud music.
I have one question. When you guys talk about the amount of headroom at a concert how do you know how much headroom there is? I mean unless you are given control of the soundboard how can you tell how much headroom they have? It seems to me that completely clean with a massive amount of headroom and completely clean with barely any headroom sounds exactly the same so without access to the board I don't see how you could possibly know anything except that it was completely clean.
From my experience what can easily be taken to be distortion (assuming that by distortion we mean clipping) by a lot of people is actually not but it is the fault of the guy running the sound. Poor equalization is one major culprit. No equalization is not all that bad and it is way better than poor equalization. A really bad mix can do the same thing.
A BBE sonic maximizer on the PA can greatly enhance the sound if used correctly but too much of it (which is common to hear) can make it sound distorted but its actually not it just sounds terrible.
But the number one most common way that a person can wreck the sound so bad it will appear to be distorted is buy using an electronic crossover and deciding to experiment with the settings. I set mine up and glued the knobs so they can't be changed. Anytime anybody so much as touches one of those at the gig the sound will be destroyed. Unless the knobs are glued and they can't change anything.
Basically, yes. Your ears. If you hear a loud, distorting PA and putting your fingers in your ears stops the distortion, it was your ears distorting, not the rig. It's more common than you think. SP levels at concerts can be insane - your ears overload.
That, in my book, is too loud. No matter what the music. I should know, I've been guilty of it more than once. I used to mix with earplugs in - really.
The man who signed the checks wanted it loud, so loud it was.
I guess the amount of headroom a PA has determines the amount of compression and limiting the FOH soundman uses to make sure the PA does not clip. For example, the average levels are say 100-110 dB. If the PA is only clean up to 116 dB, then he has 6dB of dynamics to allow for the 'attack' of the drums and even vocals, especially vocals. Ever noticed how when vocalist sing a 'aggressive' or 'high' note, it sounds the same 'loudness' as a 'whisper' part of the song. When there is too much compression and no dynamics, and turned up to the limit, then it sounds loud but lifeless and fatiguing, like a wall of sound / noise. A PA with a lot of headroom will allow a lot of dynamics for peaks, while still maintaining a decent average SPL.
Just like the loudness war debate in CD sounds...
YouTube - The Loudness War
I understand that. On the loudness war I am on both sides really. Some stuff sounds good with little dynamic range. If the music is like that to begin with I mean. If everything is balls to the wall maximum to begin with there is no reason not to compress the hell out of it. But most music is not like that and for that music I agree with the other side. It shouldn't be that compressed. Actually hard limited is what it really is. Hard limiting is compressing with a very high ratio like 10 or 20 to 1 but with a with a very high threshold (very close to zero dB which means it does nothing to anything that doesn't come real close to or exceeds 0 dB but compresses the holy hell out of what does). OdB being the point at which clipping starts. So hard limiting would be setting the compressors threshold at something like -0.0001 dB and the compression ratio at 20 to 1. Or just running a hard limiter which is the same thing.
Hard Limiting Led Zeppelin would ruin the sound because they are so dynamic but hard limiting Slayer works well because they are not.
I also understand why you want headroom. I am just saying that you can't tell how much headroom is there unless you are running the sound. All you can tell is that nothing is clipping. I admit that if nothing is clipping there is probably a considerable amount of headroom but there doesn't necessarily have to be. Especially not when you have a lot of compression.
Hard Limiting Led Zeppelin would ruin the sound because they are so dynamic but hard limiting Slayer works well because they are not.
I also understand why you want headroom. I am just saying that you can't tell how much headroom is there unless you are running the sound. All you can tell is that nothing is clipping. I admit that if nothing is clipping there is probably a considerable amount of headroom but there doesn't necessarily have to be. Especially not when you have a lot of compression.
I don't go to hardly any concerts at all anymore because for the most the sound is just plain disappointing. If it's not too loud.(which it usually is) the mix is not right for where I am sitting. Lets face it, what worse people to please than folks on DIYA anyway? We can't achieve perfection in 200 sq ft let alone expect anywhere near the same from an auditorium or outdoor venue.
At "rock" type concerts it seems they find how loud the system will go that day and take it just past that. At many shows I get the feeling that if they just backed off a little the distortion would come down and the sound would improve.
Best live sound I ever heard though was Return to Forever in the late 70's in a 300 seat auditorium at RPI in Troy NY. Part of the system was a 1/2 sphere made from plexiglass that had maybe 20 speakers radiating from it. 1 on each side. Looked kind of DIY actually, you could see some stuffing inside. The combination of that sound quality and an emerging new musical genera was phenomenal.
At "rock" type concerts it seems they find how loud the system will go that day and take it just past that. At many shows I get the feeling that if they just backed off a little the distortion would come down and the sound would improve.
Best live sound I ever heard though was Return to Forever in the late 70's in a 300 seat auditorium at RPI in Troy NY. Part of the system was a 1/2 sphere made from plexiglass that had maybe 20 speakers radiating from it. 1 on each side. Looked kind of DIY actually, you could see some stuffing inside. The combination of that sound quality and an emerging new musical genera was phenomenal.
Panomaniac, how can you possibly mix with earplugs in? IMO earplugs cause a type of distortion. Not clipping but distortion. They do not filter out different frequencies equally. Not even the ones that are not supposed to like Sonic 2 Noise filters IMO. They filter out the highs much more than the lows it seems to me. They make everything sound muddy to me.
I wear earplugs a lot. Never when listening to music but always when mowing or edging the lawn or using a chainsaw or shooting firearms on a range and a few other things. I don't want to damage my hearing for any reason besides enjoying the sound. I think 2 stroke motors (a lot of lawn edgers and leaf blowers have them) probably do the most damage but I have not tested the theory. I also think that headphones can do much more damage then even the loudest music (without headphones). It is a fact that most of the musicians who report hearing loss use headphones a lot more than those who do not report hearing loss use headphones.
I wear earplugs a lot. Never when listening to music but always when mowing or edging the lawn or using a chainsaw or shooting firearms on a range and a few other things. I don't want to damage my hearing for any reason besides enjoying the sound. I think 2 stroke motors (a lot of lawn edgers and leaf blowers have them) probably do the most damage but I have not tested the theory. I also think that headphones can do much more damage then even the loudest music (without headphones). It is a fact that most of the musicians who report hearing loss use headphones a lot more than those who do not report hearing loss use headphones.
Our ears actually have clipping protection, so to speak. The little mechanism that corrects for the compliance difference between air and liquid actually has a muscle attached to it. With a suficently loud sound, the muscle actually tenses up to limit the excursion of your eardrum, helping to prevent damage.
Most of the time this works for me even when I know for a fact that it is the pa distorting ie outdoors and I'm far enough away from a small pa producing levels no greater than what I can produce at home cleanly.
the Grateful Wall of Sound was the best system I ever heard live. They used banks of MacIntosh 2300 amps, Jbl loudspeakers (130's &140 IIRC) better sounding than almost any home system.
close up of Jerry in front of his and Bob's PA
An Insider's Look at the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound - AudioJunkies
Grateful Dead Wall of Sound Specs
26,400 watts of continuous power via 44 amplifiers
586 JBL loudspeakers (15", 12" and 5")
54 Electrovoice tweeters
75 tons in weight (approximately)
An article on the project
close up of Jerry in front of his and Bob's PA
An Insider's Look at the Grateful Dead's Wall of Sound - AudioJunkies
Grateful Dead Wall of Sound Specs
26,400 watts of continuous power via 44 amplifiers
586 JBL loudspeakers (15", 12" and 5")
54 Electrovoice tweeters
75 tons in weight (approximately)
An article on the project
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