That's not true. You guys of all people should know that a 5 100 watt amps wouldn't be much louder than 1 100 watt amp in theory and in reality probably not any louder at all. Multiple guitar amplifiers are not really used for more volume out front. They are usually used for better distribution of the volume onstage and/or for better sound. When I say better distribution onstage here is an example. If you are playing through one amp and you want a note to turn into controlled feedback at a specific point you will have to stand in a certain spot to do it but if you have a bunch of amps there is a lot more area you could do it from.
If you can beat the phase cancellation problems (which is difficult but not impossible) putting multiple mics on multiple amps that have slightly different sound can give you an awesome sound. Beating the phase cancellation requires a bunch of amps unless you spread the amps out way far apart from each other too. The only way I have found to do it includes but is not limited to each mic being at least 3 feet apart and close as possible to the speaker. There is more to it than that but it doesn't involve distance.
There is probably still some cancellation but not enough to really notice when it is done right. There have been times when I found that I got a better sound with one mic because there was too much phase cancellation with multiple mics (and in those cases I only used one mic) but now I have it down pretty well so that rarely happens.
This is really not related but I thought using one mic close and one far away in the studio was a great idea. Until I tried it. It doesn't work for me. I tried and tried it all kinds of ways and finally just use a single mic and I suspect phase cancellation is why. Getting the mic as far away from the floor as possible helps too or if you have a real low ceiling than getting it as far away from there as possible too.
I am not saying they don't but I am curious as to how you know they do? I can see how your ex-brother in law would know about the band he was tour manager for but I am curious about the others you mentioned. I mean if they claim they are real then why would they tell you they are not? Or did you sneak up and open up the cabinets while they weren't looking?
I have been around more than a few bands but I never tried to open their cabinets and see for myself. I have played gigs with Pantera and a few times been forced to use their equipment. Darrell had 3 Randall heads and 6 cabinets. All I can say for sure is that at least the top cabinet of each stack of two were working very well (loud) and probably all 6 (I did not actually get down on my knees and see if the bottom ones were working). All 3 heads were working too. His stage volume was louder than mine. (interestingly the rest of the band had a lower stage volume than my band does) I had a hard time controlling the feedback and a hard time hearing anybody else sometimes. I had all kinds of problems with his effects because they had all been painted and not one said what it was. So I decided not to mess with them but then when I realized that whenever I turned the volume down on my guitar his noise gate was cutting it off I had to try to find the noise gate to shut it off which of course was the last one I tried. Murpheys law.
And no I did not like the Randall amps but they were not the worst ones I have ever heard. They were ok at best IMO. He even came to agree on that one. He was using Krank amps for some time up until he was killed. Krank TUBE amps. Everything he did with Pantera was SS amps though. They worked pretty well for him but not for me.
"I am not saying they don't but I am curious as to how you know they do?"
My previously mentioned ex-b'in law was on tour with some of them and I was backstage during the set up. And while the stage was full of Marshall stacks there were three Boogie heads just off stage so they were not visible to the audience.
On others I was in the stage crew and the weight difference is easy enough to tell.
Apart from that the tour manager will be quite particular as to where the heavy cabs go!
My previously mentioned ex-b'in law was on tour with some of them and I was backstage during the set up. And while the stage was full of Marshall stacks there were three Boogie heads just off stage so they were not visible to the audience.
On others I was in the stage crew and the weight difference is easy enough to tell.
Apart from that the tour manager will be quite particular as to where the heavy cabs go!
I can't understand the Boogie heads off the stage. Boogie heads are just as "cool" as Marshall heads. Why hide them?
One thing I can promise you is that any small band without a road-crew is going to play through everything they haul to a gig. If it won't be used it won't be hauled to the gig. I can barely haul just my guitar stuff alone in a Ford F-150 extra cab with an extra long bed. Heads and guitars up front and cabinets in back. PA stuff I haul a trailer for. It is only a matter of time before I get some stuff stolen doing it like that though. So far everything I have lost during transport has been my own fault. During gigs I lose mics from time to time. It is unbelievable how well people can steal your mics. I mean look away for one second and you could loose a mic.
What drives me nuts is worry about the board. I always just know somebody is going to pour a beer right into it or something but it hasn't happened yet. It would be nice if somebody made some kind of cover to go over the board that was waterproof but you could still operate the board with it on.
One thing I can promise you is that any small band without a road-crew is going to play through everything they haul to a gig. If it won't be used it won't be hauled to the gig. I can barely haul just my guitar stuff alone in a Ford F-150 extra cab with an extra long bed. Heads and guitars up front and cabinets in back. PA stuff I haul a trailer for. It is only a matter of time before I get some stuff stolen doing it like that though. So far everything I have lost during transport has been my own fault. During gigs I lose mics from time to time. It is unbelievable how well people can steal your mics. I mean look away for one second and you could loose a mic.
What drives me nuts is worry about the board. I always just know somebody is going to pour a beer right into it or something but it hasn't happened yet. It would be nice if somebody made some kind of cover to go over the board that was waterproof but you could still operate the board with it on.
I hate the sound of an unmuffled Harley, nothing awesome in it to me..
There is such a thing as too loud no matter how clean it sounds IMHO...
No one seems to have mentioned the Grateful Dead (I'm not a fan) but they have been long regarded as a band that cared deeply about sound quality, and apparently back in the day their PA was amongst the best around.
See post #40, I am a fan their systems were always well done, the balance by the sound board was great (that's where the tapers hung out.
See post #40, I am a fan their systems were always well done, the balance by the sound board was great (that's where the tapers hung out.
Oops, somehow missed your post, and I read the entire thread somehow managing to miss the one post most relevant to my thoughts at that moment..
Oh geez... ignorance is bliss??
The question is which PA company builds and tours the best rigs... almost NO band today, I'd speculate that NO BAND TODAY carries their own PA, don't believe the hype you might read in some fanzine or other mag. The money involved in carrying, maintaining and have a full time crew is too much for bands, thus prosound companies. Like Claire Brothers for example.
Joey, in Manowar? Imo, complete egomaniac a-hole. Yes, I do "know" him - having been there at the very dawn of the band... Loud, yeah he/they like loud. Btw, is the original lead singer still with them?? - HE was extremely good, too bad he wasted his talent on that. (again, imho, ymmv).
Back in the day no touring PA touched what the Grateful Dead did with their giant system... but today the better prosound gear can equal and exceed what they did back in the day thanks to controlled line arrays and much much better speakers (digital control too) - plus excessive power being available in lightweight digital amps... what you hear today is largely a function of what the FOH mixer does and can or can't hear, not some limitation of the PA.
(although one can argue that it is hard to beat a lineup of tube McIntosh amps and classic JBL speakers...)
In addition, and more or less, there is a physical limit to the max SPL that a speaker system can produce.
And, I will agree with Pano, and another post - ears distorting is a problem and very bad and very low distortion and LOUD does not "sound loud" it sounds BIG. So, if you hear "loud" you are hearing distortion mostly...
Pecker, until you clip your BJT amp or your Mosfet amp (and nowithstanding differences in distortion spectra and therefore "timbre") there is no difference in loudness. You will hear a difference ONCE you clip the amps - the bjt will usually have a "hard clip" which will create hash and make things sound LOUDER...
Ok </rant>
_-_-bear
The question is which PA company builds and tours the best rigs... almost NO band today, I'd speculate that NO BAND TODAY carries their own PA, don't believe the hype you might read in some fanzine or other mag. The money involved in carrying, maintaining and have a full time crew is too much for bands, thus prosound companies. Like Claire Brothers for example.
Joey, in Manowar? Imo, complete egomaniac a-hole. Yes, I do "know" him - having been there at the very dawn of the band... Loud, yeah he/they like loud. Btw, is the original lead singer still with them?? - HE was extremely good, too bad he wasted his talent on that. (again, imho, ymmv).
Back in the day no touring PA touched what the Grateful Dead did with their giant system... but today the better prosound gear can equal and exceed what they did back in the day thanks to controlled line arrays and much much better speakers (digital control too) - plus excessive power being available in lightweight digital amps... what you hear today is largely a function of what the FOH mixer does and can or can't hear, not some limitation of the PA.
(although one can argue that it is hard to beat a lineup of tube McIntosh amps and classic JBL speakers...)
In addition, and more or less, there is a physical limit to the max SPL that a speaker system can produce.
And, I will agree with Pano, and another post - ears distorting is a problem and very bad and very low distortion and LOUD does not "sound loud" it sounds BIG. So, if you hear "loud" you are hearing distortion mostly...
Pecker, until you clip your BJT amp or your Mosfet amp (and nowithstanding differences in distortion spectra and therefore "timbre") there is no difference in loudness. You will hear a difference ONCE you clip the amps - the bjt will usually have a "hard clip" which will create hash and make things sound LOUDER...
Ok </rant>
_-_-bear
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May be they were sponsored by Marshall.
Friend of mine was sponsored by them in the '80s even though he does not like Marshall amps and only ever used SWR.
Actually in the hierarchy of amps Mesa Boogie amps are "newcomers" to the scene.
Marshall was more or less made famous by the Who and some other British bands... Hendrix
of course adopted them... so as far as cool, they be. Of course this is now ancient history...
And yes, depending on your endorsement(s) a given band will have name plates and namebrand stuff standing on the stage, even if behind the scenes it is something completely different...
Live concerts are frequently as much about the illusion as the music... (witness the proliferation of lip-syncer acts...)
_-_-bear
Marshall was more or less made famous by the Who and some other British bands... Hendrix
of course adopted them... so as far as cool, they be. Of course this is now ancient history...
And yes, depending on your endorsement(s) a given band will have name plates and namebrand stuff standing on the stage, even if behind the scenes it is something completely different...
Live concerts are frequently as much about the illusion as the music... (witness the proliferation of lip-syncer acts...)
_-_-bear
Except that The Who used Hiwatt rather than Marshall.
Hiwatt even advertised at some point that it took The Who six (or more) guitars to break one Hiwatt head.
Hiwatt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hendrix used Sound City amps btw which are the same as Hiwatt.
Hiwatt even advertised at some point that it took The Who six (or more) guitars to break one Hiwatt head.
Hiwatt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hendrix used Sound City amps btw which are the same as Hiwatt.
Ummm, no.
Marshall Amplification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
_-_-bear
They all "used" all sorts of different amps...
Marshall Amplification - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
_-_-bear
They all "used" all sorts of different amps...
Let's not confuse over the counter type of hearing protection with custom made units. While the pre-made do seem to attenuate the highs more, the custom ones (at least the ones I have) do not. When testing speakers I often use them so I can be in the room but not defeathered by the high dB levels.
The place is really jumping.... by Who Forum (The Who Forum) on Myspace
The Who and Hiwatt are practically synonymous.
From '67 they used Sound City amps, the precursor of Hiwatt.
"John Entwistle traded in his Marshall Stacks in favour of Sound City at the beginning of 1967, and Townshend followed later that year.
Around this time, Jimi Hendrix and his manager Chas Chandler approached Townshend asking for his opinion on amplification. He told them that he had stopped using Marshall as he thought Sound City were better. The Jimi Hendrix Experience subsequently started using Sound City rigs, but set them up together with their Marshall Stacks instead of replacing them.
In late 1968 The Who approached Dallas Arbiter, the makers of Sound City, asking if their equipment could be modified slightly. This request was denied, but independent amp designer and manufacturer Dave Reeves, a former employee of Sound City, agreed and created customised Sound City L100 amplifiers under the name Hylight Electronics. This model was named the Hiwatt DR103, which would be modified in 1970 into the CP103 "Super Who 100" model which Townshend used almost exclusively for over a decade. In 1973 the updated DR103W model was created, which has been the central piece of equipment around which Townshend's various rigs were built for the next thirty years.[11][12]
Most recently, Pete Townshend has been using 50 watt Hiwatt Custom amplifiers with custom made cabinet stacks, paired with 60 watt Fender Vibro-King stacks."
(from wiki)
The Who and Hiwatt are practically synonymous.
From '67 they used Sound City amps, the precursor of Hiwatt.
"John Entwistle traded in his Marshall Stacks in favour of Sound City at the beginning of 1967, and Townshend followed later that year.
Around this time, Jimi Hendrix and his manager Chas Chandler approached Townshend asking for his opinion on amplification. He told them that he had stopped using Marshall as he thought Sound City were better. The Jimi Hendrix Experience subsequently started using Sound City rigs, but set them up together with their Marshall Stacks instead of replacing them.
In late 1968 The Who approached Dallas Arbiter, the makers of Sound City, asking if their equipment could be modified slightly. This request was denied, but independent amp designer and manufacturer Dave Reeves, a former employee of Sound City, agreed and created customised Sound City L100 amplifiers under the name Hylight Electronics. This model was named the Hiwatt DR103, which would be modified in 1970 into the CP103 "Super Who 100" model which Townshend used almost exclusively for over a decade. In 1973 the updated DR103W model was created, which has been the central piece of equipment around which Townshend's various rigs were built for the next thirty years.[11][12]
Most recently, Pete Townshend has been using 50 watt Hiwatt Custom amplifiers with custom made cabinet stacks, paired with 60 watt Fender Vibro-King stacks."
(from wiki)
ELP in Toronto, for Works Vol 1.
The venue was the CNE (Canadian National Exhibition) in a football stadium. It was one of the worst accoustically, due to excessive echo/reverb in the open air stadium, but no challenge for ELP.
The orchestra was just axed before this concert. However, they still had 11 transports full of gear. The speakers were arranged in one end of the stadium at either side of the stage, just like it would be along the "short wall" if in your house.
Here is how good it sounded:
There was no discernable echo.
The sound IMAGED, just like on your stereo at home.
Loud is easy... quality take effort
The venue was the CNE (Canadian National Exhibition) in a football stadium. It was one of the worst accoustically, due to excessive echo/reverb in the open air stadium, but no challenge for ELP.
The orchestra was just axed before this concert. However, they still had 11 transports full of gear. The speakers were arranged in one end of the stadium at either side of the stage, just like it would be along the "short wall" if in your house.
Here is how good it sounded:
There was no discernable echo.
The sound IMAGED, just like on your stereo at home.
Loud is easy... quality take effort
On the Marshall website it says that Slash was their first endorsement and that was not that long ago. It also says that Pete Townsend is the reason they make 4 x 12 cabinets. The first ones they made for him were 8 x 12 cabinets and the road crew complained too much about them.
To me the BJT amps SOUND louder. There is more sound there or something. Especially on the bottom end.
Hiwatt, Laney, Orange, Marshall, Fender and Boogies are all good amps. I like the Marshall Superleads best but barely. I think the rest are real close. If I had an Orange I would definitely use it occasionally for recording. For live they just aren't quite bright enough for me.
To me the BJT amps SOUND louder. There is more sound there or something. Especially on the bottom end.
Hiwatt, Laney, Orange, Marshall, Fender and Boogies are all good amps. I like the Marshall Superleads best but barely. I think the rest are real close. If I had an Orange I would definitely use it occasionally for recording. For live they just aren't quite bright enough for me.
Many many racks full of Crown K2 amps when the same show did Soldiers' Field in Chicago.
When I saw the Who on their second live tour of the US, in a small horse corall with a set of bleachers, they were already on Hi-Watt unmiked, about 4 doubelstack on each side. Roadie was checking every speaker in the backline, and when one didn't sound good he stuck a penknife into the grillecloth and removed the cone thru the front.
The Dead's "big system" was indeed incredible. Many very clean low-distortion speakers that were not very efficient, mostly sealed boxes. Many MAC2400 amps. It was actually several PAs, with a seperate PA for bass guitar, a separate PA for vocals, etc. Bass guitar volume was on a foot-pedal under the console as I recall. Got more complicated as they added delay towers. Eventually not economically feasible, and more efficient systems became more accurate.
I've sometimes taken a similar approach. A seperate PA for vocals is still often a good idea, depending on whether the vocals need to be intelligible and whether the instruments are intended to "meld"...
The Dead's "big system" was indeed incredible. Many very clean low-distortion speakers that were not very efficient, mostly sealed boxes. Many MAC2400 amps. It was actually several PAs, with a seperate PA for bass guitar, a separate PA for vocals, etc. Bass guitar volume was on a foot-pedal under the console as I recall. Got more complicated as they added delay towers. Eventually not economically feasible, and more efficient systems became more accurate.
I've sometimes taken a similar approach. A seperate PA for vocals is still often a good idea, depending on whether the vocals need to be intelligible and whether the instruments are intended to "meld"...
Spot on! Clean and loud is the real mastery. I find it funny when non-tech folks use the word "LOUD" to refer to pain rather than level.
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