Joe Rasmussen said:
Joe, I must be missing something - please help me understand (for me a theoretical question since I'm building my Elsinores exactly as published).
If one plans to use a 3-way electronic cross-over and have a surplus of amplifiers why could one not drive the top and bottom pairs of the 6.5" mid/bass separately. I understand the impedances might be less ideal compared to driving them all together and that it would require fideling with the filter slopes, etc., to get the voicing right.
Francois G said:
I know Bi-Wiring, Bi-Amping and electronic crossovers etc can be a bit confusing as there are a lot of variables.
To keep it simple for now, the Elsinores with Passive Crossover can easily be Bi-Wired, with a single amp. This is what I do pretty much all the time.
When Bi-Wiring a 2 1/2 Way, then connect Mid (which also carries Bass content) together with Bass - wire them together. The Tweeter get its own wire. IF Bi-Wiring a 3-Way (not the Elsinores) then the Mid (no Bass content) and Tweeter should be wired together and the Bass on its own. See the pattern?
If TRI-Wiring, then 3-Way and 2 1/2-Way wiring is the same.
Now what about MULTIPLE amplifiers. This is a different kettle of fish. TRI-Amping needs three amps and is the same for 3-Way and 2 1/2-Way.
If Bi-Amping, I would use the same rules as above for Bi-Wiring.
Now electronic crossovers - oh boy, where do I start? Here I would need more specific info as to what you have in mind. Mind you, and this will surprise some, there are some things that Passive Crossovers can in some ways do better than electronic crossovers - it's not just one or the other. In the Elsinores I would use a mix of passive and active plus multiple amps. But the variables are many.
But I think we can agree that what you are doing now is the best thing. Get them going pasively and then we can go through the options then. There will be quite a few I suspect.
I do note that mixing active, multiple amps and passive crossovers are a lot more common these days. Step by step we can see what you can do as well and I'll try to help you along. But we should be able to employ some of those spare amps you have.
Joe R.
rob323 said:
Yeah Rob. But it looks good, real good!
And I've suspected this might be the case. In which case that should apply to other similar types? This is an area I don't really have enough expertise (a man has got to know his limitations).
Re HAMLET:
Not this week, but hopefully next, I will post the provisionary crossover for the Hamlet Project" - it will stay that way until I get my hands on a physical box with drivers.
Rob, any idea if and when that could happen? I think you remain the person nearest here. You will get honourary mention as a "collaborator" - that's a promise.
No, truly!
Joe R.
My only real option with the Deqx, without sacrificing the superb efficiency of the setup in it's passive form, is to run it as a two way. Tweeters on one amp and mids and woofers on another, leaving the crossover in the mix for the woofers.Joe Rasmussen said:
If you can get a 3 way active crossover that doesn't mind sending the bass frequencies to the mids as well as the bass, then it could work but I suspect you would need some equalisation as the woofer crossover slope might be steeper than the ideal baffle step slope.(Does that make sense??)
No idea yet Joe, sorry. It WILL happen, but I will be out sleeping in my shed if I start another speaker project before finishing some other SPL (spouse priority list) projects first. Mid year is the plan atm.
Cheers,
Rob.
Salas said:
Hi Salas
Good video, especially on the physical evidence towards the end, that "passive" capacitors are reactive devices, just like drivers are, even if not deliberately. It all fits into a pattern. Menno says he was able to measure significant amounts of distortion and when capacitors can "sing" like transducers, it is clear that this is not minor stuff.
BTW, it occurs to me that you'd like to read his paper in its entirety. It was made public at the same AES as the video clip:
www.mennovanderveen.nl/nl/download/download_4.pdf
As I said earlier, no mention of deliberately biasing crossover caps, but what it says lends to the idea.
It also fits into what the video said, that it was voltage - despite the fact that Menno seems to focus more on the current. Actually, I don't think that is necessarily a contradiction. The voltage is the attractive force, but current is drawn if physical reaction takes place. But keeping a voltage charge across the plates/electrodes and not reversing it, this and mechanical attention are not mutually exclusive.
It will be interesting to hear from Elsinore constructors trying DC Bias.
Joe R.
Hi Joe,
18V (2 bat. in series) would be better since its only one capacitor you concentrate on, and they will last for years. Down to 12V signal the electrostatic microphony phenomenon is mostly strong is mentioned in the video, so better cover more range higher up. It will be interesting to hear for differences with one vs two batteries as an easy test.
Regarding what is best to do, I guess mechanical construction measures are the base attack, but since those findings are proprietary to a certain company, using DC bias bears logic so to help all makes and also possibly lift higher for sonics previously suffering cheaper, loose made examples. Alas, the need for double the caps can offset possible economical benefits. The method lends to DIY easier.
Regards
18V (2 bat. in series) would be better since its only one capacitor you concentrate on, and they will last for years. Down to 12V signal the electrostatic microphony phenomenon is mostly strong is mentioned in the video, so better cover more range higher up. It will be interesting to hear for differences with one vs two batteries as an easy test.
Regarding what is best to do, I guess mechanical construction measures are the base attack, but since those findings are proprietary to a certain company, using DC bias bears logic so to help all makes and also possibly lift higher for sonics previously suffering cheaper, loose made examples. Alas, the need for double the caps can offset possible economical benefits. The method lends to DIY easier.
Regards
Joe,
Very well done on another unusual application of a fringe theory!
And finally, this explans why some companies bias their interconnect and speaker cables.
I (Vacuum State) make both wire and foil interconnects, and foil speaker cables. They were first described in the SuperCables CookBook over 10 years ago now - and a key part in the developmewnt of these cables since then has been in making the conductors - especially the foil conductors - impervious to movement (with respect to each other) from the AC signal fields generated by the signal passing through the cables.
Because just like the conductors inside a cap, the energy needed for any movementof a cable conductor must come from the signal itself, and that means energy subtracted from the signal, often in unpredictable ways.
Adding a bias will make the cables far more complex, maybe far too much, but needs to be tried, along with our already unique ideas.
Thanks for the idea.
Regards, Allen (Vacuum State)
PS For all those who have bought a SuperCables CookBook in the past five years, you should look at our website in about a month for a very special offer.
Very well done on another unusual application of a fringe theory!
And finally, this explans why some companies bias their interconnect and speaker cables.
I (Vacuum State) make both wire and foil interconnects, and foil speaker cables. They were first described in the SuperCables CookBook over 10 years ago now - and a key part in the developmewnt of these cables since then has been in making the conductors - especially the foil conductors - impervious to movement (with respect to each other) from the AC signal fields generated by the signal passing through the cables.
Because just like the conductors inside a cap, the energy needed for any movementof a cable conductor must come from the signal itself, and that means energy subtracted from the signal, often in unpredictable ways.
Adding a bias will make the cables far more complex, maybe far too much, but needs to be tried, along with our already unique ideas.
Thanks for the idea.
Regards, Allen (Vacuum State)
PS For all those who have bought a SuperCables CookBook in the past five years, you should look at our website in about a month for a very special offer.
Allen Wright said:
Yup. This subject has legs to run...
Hi Allen, good to see you joining in.
When can you get Hans to do 'our' pair over there in the land of Swiss cheese? I am dying to get feedback on this. I spoke to Mike Lenehan and he's also going to try it on his ML-1 www.audiophilia.com/hardware/Loudspeakers/reviews/lenehan.htm (nice review), but everybody seems so busy right now, including me.
The weekend is upon us, so hopefully some Elsinore constructor out there will take the opportunity going first among them?
Joe R.
Joe, I have a confession to make 
.
I was sitting in front of my/your Elsinores last night, listening to some Metisse (a new artist to my ears) and started thinking
, how cool would the Elsi's look if they had another two drivers on top making them a WWWTWWW 
, and what if the front baffle was curved so they were all time aligned properly as well 
.
(Yes, I often come up with brain explosions when I've had a few medicinal beverages).
Anyway, I then remembered about the Hamsters (dang, did it again, strike that) Hamlets, and seeing as my wife was in the room at the time, I broached the subject with her.
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Yes, well. It seems there are some more things on my "must do to keep my lovely wife happy" list than I had previously known about.
But, I'm going to pick up some flowers and some jewellery on the way home from work this arvo so don't write me off just yet
.I was sitting in front of my/your Elsinores last night, listening to some Metisse (a new artist to my ears) and started thinking
, how cool would the Elsi's look if they had another two drivers on top making them a WWWTWWW , and what if the front baffle was curved so they were all time aligned properly as well .(Yes, I often come up with brain explosions when I've had a few medicinal beverages).
Anyway, I then remembered about the Hamsters (dang, did it again, strike that) Hamlets, and seeing as my wife was in the room at the time, I broached the subject with her.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Yes, well. It seems there are some more things on my "must do to keep my lovely wife happy" list than I had previously known about.
But, I'm going to pick up some flowers and some jewellery on the way home from work this arvo so don't write me off just yet
Hi Joe,
I continue to enjoy Elsinore's.
Another audio buff and diy'er that heard them for the first time was blow away to say the least..
The change to the tweeter crossover looks interesting. I'm aiming for this weekend to try it out.
I looked around this morning and came up with qty-10 4.7uf 250v nichicon polarized caps and 1/2w 100k resistors.
Should these be fine? It's beats waiting for a mailed package to find out..
What about conjugate?
Joel
I continue to enjoy Elsinore's.
Another audio buff and diy'er that heard them for the first time was blow away to say the least..
The change to the tweeter crossover looks interesting. I'm aiming for this weekend to try it out.
I looked around this morning and came up with qty-10 4.7uf 250v nichicon polarized caps and 1/2w 100k resistors.
Should these be fine? It's beats waiting for a mailed package to find out..
What about conjugate?
Joel
rob323 said:Joe, I have a confession to make
I was sitting in front of my/your Elsinores last night, listening to some Metisse (a new artist to my ears) and started thinking
That could be cool or something like this but with the other tweeter
Attachments
Joel Wesseling said:
I looked around this morning and came up with qty-10 4.7uf 250v nichicon polarized caps and 1/2w 100k resistors.
Should these be fine? It's beats waiting for a mailed package to find out..
What about conjugate?
Joel
Try the caps if you've got them. Leave the conjugate exactly as before.
It might be a good idea to put a 1K resistor in parallel with the conjugate - this should make sure that the first cap sees ground potential at all time. Some amps may take exception on turn-on if it sees an 'ungrounded' cap with a bit of DC on it. May make some noises. A 1K resistor should fix that. It's value in non-critcal and 330R to 1K should be OK.
Re 100K, exact value is not all that critical and even 1/2 Watt should be OK.
Joe R.
rob323 said:
Go to the local Dan Murphy and get a six-pack of Elephant beer (made by Carlsberg and fully imported from Copenhagen). It, will set you back $18 and 7.2% as rated by Al K. Hall; and while drinking it, reflect that I was born about 3Km away (in Frederiksberg) from the place that stuff was brewed. AFAIK, it is strongest beer available in Australia. And not a bad drop.
Joe R.
Joe Rasmussen said:
As a Dane who loves his beer, i must say i like your choose in beverges. But i prefer Tuborg gold or as they are better know in Denmark, Golden ladies, B!tches or golden ammo
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
But i'm done building the original cabinets and have had them play 2 weeks now, must say that i am VERY impressed!
Now for the center channel, it sounds different not as good as the fronts, but very close! you said you might have some ideas about crossover changes. What did you have in mind?
But it do sound a lot better than a B&W HTM61
In the center channel cabinet i moved the basport in the middel behind tweeter pointing downward
Are building the other cabinets now, so far so good, The first 2 curved layers on the sides now and they look pretty darn good
And if no one post anything about the tweeter crossover change you surgested soon, then i going to do it