The "Elsinore Project" Thread - Page 23 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 15th July 2008, 02:12 PM   #221
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
I asked you this because I think the MK1 has the best FR, but the MK3 is easier to build. So if I can conbine the 2 pros.

What is the implication of using the vifa instead of HDS in MK3 desing on frequency response? Did you ever tried this combo, or even just simulated?

You guys, who have build the laudspeaker, how long did it take?

thank you very much
__________________
2wheels good 4 wheels bad
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th July 2008, 11:03 PM   #222
diyAudio Member
 
Joe Rasmussen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
Send a message via MSN to Joe Rasmussen
Quote:
Originally posted by nitronori
I asked you this because I think the MK1 has the best FR, but the MK3 is easier to build. So if I can conbine the 2 pros.

What is the implication of using the vifa instead of HDS in MK3 desing on frequency response? Did you ever tried this combo, or even just simulated?

You guys, who have build the laudspeaker, how long did it take?

thank you very much
Pleased to hear that you are contemplating building the Elsinores. I suppose how long it takes depends on how critical you are, a slightly rough looking box construction would no doubt not take as long to build. But they are not beyond a reasonably good handyman. I am no particular wizard in that department, so if I can do it, just about anybody motivated can do it.

Re Tweeter: May I be so blunt (but no iron fist in a velvet glove) as to say that your reasoning is entirely false. Whereas the XT25 Tweeter has the best ON axis response, which is only gettable of an ideal baffle, its OFF axis response is much weaker than the HDS. In fact, the HDS top octave response at the near ideal listening angle of 15 degrees (which is what the Elsinores are designed for), the FR of the HDS is way better than the XT25 and that will apply to most "real world" baffles. Neither are perfect.

Beyond FR, the HDS is so superior to the XT25 is every way, lower distortion being the most dominant quality, and this is very very audible. The Elsinore design demands a lot from the Tweeter, especially in the 1.5Khz to 3KHz range, here it handles the "heat in the kitchen" much better than the XT25.

Go for the HDS, you won't regret it. It is a world class Tweeter at a bargain price, the XT25 is not.

Joe R.
__________________
The "Elsinore Project" DIY Speaker System
Custom Analogue Audio - we also support and promote non-profit DIY
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th July 2008, 05:21 PM   #223
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
I'm not convinced of the FR above 12khz. Still offaxis there's too much exaltation, that can cause harsh sound and could make the speaker not versatile too all musical material.

This can be partially solved by a correction circuit: wich I'm working, because before 10khz is almost perfect.

But looking at the old MK1 measurment, the mk1 has the most desirable FR, also offaxis is not bad( maybe I would lessen a bit the R3 value if one want to listen off axis). But generally in the 8khz-16khz region is desirable a descending response.

In my opinion the FR of the speaker is very very important( also less than 1db is audible). After that it comes phase coherence. Narutally if there isn't an evident distortion.

In the end I think I'm going to build the "genuine MK3" version with HDS. Because If I put the vifa in the mk3 I don't where I'm going in the FR, I don't leave the certain for uncertain.

Thank you
__________________
2wheels good 4 wheels bad
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th July 2008, 12:16 AM   #224
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
The XT25 and HDS are totally different sounding tweeters, regardless of whether it's apparent in the frequency response or not. The XT25 is NOT the flattest when you look at power response. This and the totally different dome geometries make for very different subjective presentation, and the HDS is quite superior in this regard.

A single on axis frequency response tells very little about how a tweeter will sound.
__________________
~Brandon
DriverVault Soma Sonus Old Driver Tests
  Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2008, 11:30 PM   #225
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Joe what wire coil diameter did you used for L3-L4 inductors?

The 1.4mm ( that's 15 awg I think) provide DCR well below your suggested max value. While the 1mm(awg18) it's barely within it.

thanks
__________________
2wheels good 4 wheels bad
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2008, 06:39 AM   #226
diyAudio Member
 
Joe Rasmussen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
Send a message via MSN to Joe Rasmussen
Quote:
Originally posted by nitronori
I'm not convinced of the FR above 12khz. Still offaxis there's too much exaltation, that can cause harsh sound and could make the speaker not versatile too all musical material....

In the end I think I'm going to build the "genuine MK3" version with HDS. Because If I put the vifa in the mk3 I don't where I'm going in the FR, I don't leave the certain for uncertain.

Thank you
I forgot to mention a major reason to go with the HDS is that it is 8 Ohm - keep in mind that this is 1st order and that the single series cap in series with series R and the tweeter's Z means that as it descends toward the crossover frequency in the upper midrange, it starts to draw significant negative current. This is typical of 1st order high-pass. The 8 Ohm HDS will draw less than half negative current compared to the XT25.

This is Mk1 with XT25:

Click the image to open in full size.

This is Mk3 with HDS:


Click the image to open in full size.


Not only is the Z much flatter (good for tube amps) but the HDS phase angle is only -20 degress @ 2KHz and Z over 8 Ohm which never drops down to zero (this qualifies as an easy 8 Ohm load nominally). The Mark 1 with XT25 drops to -50 degrees @ just under 2KHz. The Z drops to just above 4 Ohm - this does NOT qualify as an 8 Ohm rated speaker (where Z must not drop below 5.65 Ohm).

So I think you are wise to go with the HDS. No matter what, your ears will appreciate it.

Joe R.
__________________
The "Elsinore Project" DIY Speaker System
Custom Analogue Audio - we also support and promote non-profit DIY
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2008, 06:43 AM   #227
diyAudio Member
 
Joe Rasmussen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
Send a message via MSN to Joe Rasmussen
Quote:
Originally posted by nitronori
Joe what wire coil diameter did you used for L3-L4 inductors?

The 1.4mm ( that's 15 awg I think) provide DCR well below your suggested max value. While the 1mm(awg18) it's barely within it.

thanks
I honestly do not know, I didn't wind them. But L3 can have very high DC resistance and then reduce R2 accordingly. But the one I used were about 0.25R if memory serves me right. L4 needs to be a good size choke and be as low as possible, less than 0.5R is recommended and go below that if you can.

So L3 is not critical but L4 is!

Joe R.
__________________
The "Elsinore Project" DIY Speaker System
Custom Analogue Audio - we also support and promote non-profit DIY
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2008, 07:18 AM   #228
diyAudio Member
 
otto88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Hi
I've searched but must have missed it.
Are there two Peerless woofer options, and if so how should we decide which?

Thank you
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2008, 09:06 AM   #229
diyAudio Member
 
Joe Rasmussen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sydney, Australia
Send a message via MSN to Joe Rasmussen
Quote:
Originally posted by otto88
Hi
I've searched but must have missed it.
Are there two Peerless woofer options, and if so how should we decide which?

Thank you
I strongly recommend the Nomex 830875 - the voice coil runs cooler and is about 1dB more sensitive. It fits the Elsinore ideal better for lower dynamic compression.

Joe R.
__________________
The "Elsinore Project" DIY Speaker System
Custom Analogue Audio - we also support and promote non-profit DIY
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd July 2008, 11:55 AM   #230
diyAudio Member
 
otto88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Joe,

That 830875 has a damn smooth response!

http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=12

How much are they here in Oz?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Proac 2.5 clone" or "Elsinore project" Joel Wesseling Multi-Way 10 26th May 2011 05:51 AM
A thread to post your "project files" critofur Multi-Way 10 21st March 2008 12:50 PM
"compact loudspeaker factory visit from "magico mini" thread Nanook Multi-Way 2 4th January 2008 07:30 AM
The "Really simple and cheap speaker designs for the newbie!" thread. Spasticteapot Multi-Way 5 19th March 2006 04:16 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:43 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2