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Old 20th February 2008, 02:47 AM   #111
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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Two questions....

I couldn't find where you put the sensitivity of this design. What's the sensitivity?

Did you examine the Peerless Exclusive? I've heard them once and I liked what I heard in the context of the design I heard. I haven't heard the HDS. I just know that the exclusives are stated to be really good (subjectively and measured).
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Old 24th February 2008, 02:47 PM   #112
Peter N is offline Peter N  Italy
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I received the ok from Joe, so I can go ahead

Now I decided no to flush mount also the midwoofer and woofer. Let's see first how good they play and than maybe in summer before I'll paint tham I'll do the routing.

I would like to put the crossover inside the speaker for aesthetics reasons. Joe told I can put it in the base. The distance of the coils from the driver should be enough I think.

Do you know a glue that can I use to attach the xover component to the wood but then I can remove them?

thank you
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Old 24th February 2008, 02:59 PM   #113
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Polyurethane glue (that foamy stuff)
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Old 25th February 2008, 12:02 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoshK

Two questions....

What's the sensitivity?

Did you examine the Peerless Exclusive? I've heard them once and I liked what I heard in the context of the

design I heard. I haven't heard the HDS. I just know that the exclusives are stated to be really good

(subjectively and measured).

These questions deserve a detailed answer.

The sensitivity is rated 'high' - I was asked to demo the Elsinores at an audiophile meeting, it was inserted into their system after the Reference 3A Veena speakers, rated at 89dB, and the system operator had to reduce the volume control significantly. I asked him what he thought the difference was and he estimated 4-5dB. That would make the Elsinores 93dB? The Veena are about A$7500 - but I believe they are US$3000 - and very well regarded and also by the audience. But the Elsinores filled that large room with much greater ease and required much less power. The Veena are not full-range in the same sense as the Elsinores and quite frankly the HDS tweeter is superior to the ones used in the Veena.

Re the Peerless Exclusive, I believe you are thinking of the 830883, they too are part of the Peerless HDS range and also Nomex cones. The Exclusives are prettier looking maybe, or just more high tech looking. They also have a phase plug. Other than that, they are both "HDS" quality and the other bits are very similar. The motor is the same as is the basket (just different colour) and the spider likely too. I note the cone mass is the same so I suspect the Nomex cone is the same except the dustcap is different to accommodate the phase plug. The price difference from my supplier is not that great. Sound quality? I would think quite similar.

Would they work in the Elsinores? Possibly, but they would require much work, the sensitivity is about a dB lower. I do prefer not having the phase plug as it complicates things, but that doesn't mean it won't work, just that it will mean that it has to be accommodated by the crossover modeling. It would mean many many hours of work and there is no reason to believe it will sound better than the current 830875 driver. Incidentally, the current crossover is also compatible with another HDS driver, but not Nomex, the 830874 multi-layer cone, just one resistor value needs changing. PoorSound is using this and so is a pair that has been made in Switzerland. The 830875 and 830874 has near identical cone profiles and the similar same acoustic anomaly that creates a 4KHz peak (no cone breakup). See why:

Here - also read text that leads up to the conclusion given.

Re the T-S parameters of the exclusive, the current box design should also work. While the parameters are not the same, the lower Q of the Exclusive is offset by its lower Fs relative 830875 and so on. They balance out similarly and the alignment curve ends up almost identical, the max error being at 50 Hertz and about 1/2 dB.

By making the port about 20mm longer and that error is effectively nil. So by tuning 2 Hertz lower the same box will give pretty much the exact same result.

Joe R.
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:30 PM   #115
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Default Nomex vs Exclusive

to compare the properties of the Exclusive vs the Nomex HDS, you can get an idea by going to

http://www.zaphaudio.com/5.5test/compare.html

and looking at the Peerless-830882 and then the Peerless-830873, which are the 5.25" versions of the drivers you are concerned with. Note that you can flip thru the Freq response, distortion, CSD, Impedance and T-S parameters

if you go to

http://www.zaphaudio.com/6.5test/compare.html

and select 830883, you can see the results of the 6.5" model you are interested in. Sadly, there is no 830875 to compare it to, but you certainly can see how the personalities of the two models compare.
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Old 25th February 2008, 07:57 PM   #116
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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FWIW,

I asked because I was under the impression that the Exclusives had a better motor (faraday sleeve) and measured better (distortion wise). Zaph's comparison between the regular HDS and the Exclusive for the 5.25 would suggest to me that they aren't too much different except that the Exclusive in this case would be easier to work with for the 2k-3k region. Who knows with the 6.5?

I think the Exclusives are ugly, so I wouldn't use them for that reason, the HDS are much more attractive in my mind. It looks like the phase plug might provide some benefits at break-up, if I am inferring correctly from the CSD comparison.
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Old 25th February 2008, 08:11 PM   #117
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Using the exclusive appears to me to require a XO redesign. The impedance is quite different, even down low in the XO region. So the exclusive does indeed have more copper in the motor, or just better placed. Sensitivity is the same but response is not, but probably wouldn't take much tweaking.

Personally I think the exclusive is kind of ugly. The Nomex 832873 really looks classy. And sounds very good my bookshelf speakers too. Just make sure you port them, bass output is pretty poor with these.
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Old 26th February 2008, 12:06 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoshK
FWIW,

I think the Exclusives are ugly, so I wouldn't use them for that reason, the HDS are much more attractive in my mind. It looks like the phase plug might provide some benefits at break-up, if I am inferring correctly from the CSD comparison.


Quote:
Originally posted by augerpro


Personally I think the exclusive is kind of ugly. The Nomex 832873 really looks classy. And sounds very good my bookshelf speakers too. Just make sure you port them, bass output is pretty poor with these.

We have a consensus of opinion, the Exclusives looks are not our cup of tea.

It's a shame that Zaph did not include 830875 in the 6.5 inch survey. I note he gave both the standard 5.25" Nomex HDS and Exclusive HDS the same four star rating and the 6.5 inch Exclusives 4 1/2 stars.

Would the Exclusives sound better than standard HDS in the Elsinores, especially in view that they did a better/improved job in the copper department. Hard to say. But I do say this, the sound we have gotten from standard HDS Nomex compares favourably with Scan-Speak SD-2 drivers. What I am saying is that listening to SS SD-2 driver designs and all HDS (tweeter & midbass) designs, the latter did not sound inferior. But the driver cost differences were 3:1 by estimation or not far off.

In the 5.25 inch survey I note that F2 and F4 are about the same, the Exclusives have better F3 and F5 - but looking at CSD the normal HDS seems to have the edge. The standard HDS are definitely smoother and I am not convinced re the phase plug.

Anyway, the Elsinore concept started back in 2004 - and used 830874 to start with (a number of Elsinores still do) and then 830875 became available in numbers. No Exclusives on the horizon yet - wanted to avoid SS drivers because of the cost and the idea was using HDS to compete right up there but with the cash strapped DIY person in mind. But if the Exclusives were to become available without the phase plug, I might be tempted.

Joe R.
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Old 27th February 2008, 07:38 PM   #119
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Here are my Elsinores.

I like them a lot. Very, very dynamic speakers.

These ones are with the HDS Nomex in it. I'm still tempted to buy 8 pcs of the PPB. Just to try.

I would like to thank Joe for all his work.

Haven't heard from you in a while, Joe. What's up?

Frank
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Old 27th February 2008, 08:07 PM   #120
Peter N is offline Peter N  Italy
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Hello, I'm concerned about the space for the crossover inside the cabinet, in particular with the space between the coils.

The crossover on a MDF piece 14cmX16cm could be done according to you?
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