okay,
I am getting ready to upgrade the audio portion of my home theatre. basically, after researching long and hard, looking at different budget speaker build options, I have come to a few different options.
The first is to use three TM speakers, The RS180 Modula MT's. this is a proven speaker, and I figure three of them (Left / Right / Center) all standing up right, however the center will have to sit a lower stand, below the screen (tweeter not at ear level) I can point it upwards a little if need be.
The second option is to use 2 dayon DIII's for the left and right, and then use a UniCC project speaker
Dayton DIII
UniCC center channel
here is my thoughts. I like the ability to play loud, and The system currently has a 10" JBL northridge subwoofer, that I am not happy with the performance, and will be upgrading to a 12 or 15" sonotube. I use the system primarily for movies / sporting events with friends, however do like to listen to music on it as well. It will be powered through either a Pioneer reciever or a Yamaha Reciever (I have both, both are Dolby digital / DTS, both put out 100w to seven channels) I am currently only using 5 channels. I plan to upgrade down the road to a full seven channels, but that will be as funds and time allow.
lastly, the room that these speakers are going in, is large, it's approx 14x22, and the speakers and Screen exist inside of a large closet with the doors removed. Will that cause a problem with acoustics? The speakers exist away from the rear wall, and the fronts of the speakers are flush with the front of the closet as is the screen) I can pull them out slightly further if needed. The rear walls are currently bare brick, and will be soon covered in fabric. The flooring is a tile, however eventually it will be carpet, and the rest of the room is either wood paneling or drywall (ie this is a very bright room accoustically)
so I guess to recap it's this way
which will be better, 3 modela MT's in a L-C-R config or a pair of Dayton DIII's and a UniCC, given my room conditions, primarily this is for HT, however some music. large room, high SPL preferred, No near field listening (given HT, everybody is at least 8' away from the speakers)
Thanks
lastly, I am a first time Speaker builder, I have built a few car subs with mixed results, I have basic hand tools (router, rotozip, circular saw, etc) I am a DIY carpenter, and have done lots of DIY stuff, just never built a speaker box. I had considered doing a set of DIY Dayton D8's however decided against it due to the box sizes.
I am getting ready to upgrade the audio portion of my home theatre. basically, after researching long and hard, looking at different budget speaker build options, I have come to a few different options.
The first is to use three TM speakers, The RS180 Modula MT's. this is a proven speaker, and I figure three of them (Left / Right / Center) all standing up right, however the center will have to sit a lower stand, below the screen (tweeter not at ear level) I can point it upwards a little if need be.
The second option is to use 2 dayon DIII's for the left and right, and then use a UniCC project speaker
Dayton DIII
UniCC center channel
here is my thoughts. I like the ability to play loud, and The system currently has a 10" JBL northridge subwoofer, that I am not happy with the performance, and will be upgrading to a 12 or 15" sonotube. I use the system primarily for movies / sporting events with friends, however do like to listen to music on it as well. It will be powered through either a Pioneer reciever or a Yamaha Reciever (I have both, both are Dolby digital / DTS, both put out 100w to seven channels) I am currently only using 5 channels. I plan to upgrade down the road to a full seven channels, but that will be as funds and time allow.
lastly, the room that these speakers are going in, is large, it's approx 14x22, and the speakers and Screen exist inside of a large closet with the doors removed. Will that cause a problem with acoustics? The speakers exist away from the rear wall, and the fronts of the speakers are flush with the front of the closet as is the screen) I can pull them out slightly further if needed. The rear walls are currently bare brick, and will be soon covered in fabric. The flooring is a tile, however eventually it will be carpet, and the rest of the room is either wood paneling or drywall (ie this is a very bright room accoustically)
so I guess to recap it's this way
which will be better, 3 modela MT's in a L-C-R config or a pair of Dayton DIII's and a UniCC, given my room conditions, primarily this is for HT, however some music. large room, high SPL preferred, No near field listening (given HT, everybody is at least 8' away from the speakers)
Thanks
lastly, I am a first time Speaker builder, I have built a few car subs with mixed results, I have basic hand tools (router, rotozip, circular saw, etc) I am a DIY carpenter, and have done lots of DIY stuff, just never built a speaker box. I had considered doing a set of DIY Dayton D8's however decided against it due to the box sizes.
I think this really depends on your receiver- what models do you have? An MTM speaker tends to have a 4 ohm impedance, and your receiver might have a problem with that. Also, the MT will be able to handle reasonably high SPLs if your receiver has a "small" mode.
I have the Modula MT, and they're really excellent. If you especially like the idea of an MT, also check out this project: http://zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
I'd expect it to be somewhere between the Modula MT and the DIII in terms of sound quality, but much closer to the Modula MT.
I have the Modula MT, and they're really excellent. If you especially like the idea of an MT, also check out this project: http://zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html
I'd expect it to be somewhere between the Modula MT and the DIII in terms of sound quality, but much closer to the Modula MT.
/sreten.joe carrow said:
Yes, my reciever has a small mode, the pioneer is brand new, it's a basic HT, seven channel 100w. It was highly rated as an entry model HT reciever. The Yamaha is an HTR-5760. I am currently using the yamaha upstairs to power my living room HT, which is a athena Micra-5 system. However, I am more then willing to switch the recivers and put the pioneer upstairs and the yammie downstairs. Both have small settings, and all the new HT modes.
as for the BAMTM, I have a looked over this speaker quite a bit, and considered it, especially in the ported version, however the problem is that I have read that an MTM have poor off-axis sound fields, and my room is large, and the way the furniture is setup, really everybody is slightly off axis. I don't have enough space to put the speaker standing up. I have read alot about the BAMTM, however several people have asked and nobody responded as to weather or not on it's side it would have a big off-axis problem.
Also, I have read that aluminum tweeters tend to have a bright sound, that combined with my large room, essentially void of any kind of resonable sound deflection, wouldn't that make it an even BRIGHTER sound in my enviroment?
also, what about the problem of putting speakers in a closet? Does anybody have any thoughts?
Clear- it looks like you've done your homework! A few comments, I hope they help:
About the BAMTM on its side; you're right, it's probably not a good idea. Most MTMs have limited dispersion in their vertical axis. This can actually be a good thing in their normal orientation, because it can reduce the sound bounced from the floor and ceiling on its way to the listening position.
About that particular aluminum tweeter- it's quite nice, and in fact I have it in my Modula MT, but if you like a more laid back sound then I won't try to talk you into it. In my opinion, it just sounds realistic. Sometimes cymbals and distorted guitars do sound harsh with this tweeter, but I don't think it's any worse than the time I've spent watching and playing in rock and symphonic bands. When you smash some cymbals, the sound is supposed to be really in your face.
You can always add a little EQ. On my receiver, I turned the "treble" setting down one notch. Sure the hi-fi snobs might scoff, but it made the sound better for me.
About mounting in the closet- that could be a big problem. It can essentially set up a cavity resonance that will echo after sound has ceased, and it can screw up your frequency response curve. From your situation, it sounds lik you sound have a look at the "no baffle step" version of the Modula MT and Natalie Portman, and consider flush mounting the speakers.
If you really still need the closet unobstructed, just hang a lot of wool coats and camping equipment (sleeping bags!) on either side of the speakers to absorb sound.
About the sub- I don't think there will be any major functional difference between that and a DIY tube sub. Some would argue that you could get more for your money DIY, but it sounds like the choice is made.
About the BAMTM on its side; you're right, it's probably not a good idea. Most MTMs have limited dispersion in their vertical axis. This can actually be a good thing in their normal orientation, because it can reduce the sound bounced from the floor and ceiling on its way to the listening position.
About that particular aluminum tweeter- it's quite nice, and in fact I have it in my Modula MT, but if you like a more laid back sound then I won't try to talk you into it. In my opinion, it just sounds realistic. Sometimes cymbals and distorted guitars do sound harsh with this tweeter, but I don't think it's any worse than the time I've spent watching and playing in rock and symphonic bands. When you smash some cymbals, the sound is supposed to be really in your face.
You can always add a little EQ. On my receiver, I turned the "treble" setting down one notch. Sure the hi-fi snobs might scoff, but it made the sound better for me.
About mounting in the closet- that could be a big problem. It can essentially set up a cavity resonance that will echo after sound has ceased, and it can screw up your frequency response curve. From your situation, it sounds lik you sound have a look at the "no baffle step" version of the Modula MT and Natalie Portman, and consider flush mounting the speakers.
If you really still need the closet unobstructed, just hang a lot of wool coats and camping equipment (sleeping bags!) on either side of the speakers to absorb sound.
About the sub- I don't think there will be any major functional difference between that and a DIY tube sub. Some would argue that you could get more for your money DIY, but it sounds like the choice is made.
joe carrow said:
thank you, I have researched these alot. as for the speaker placement, the closet is empty. I should probably take a picture, and will try to remember when i get home tonight to do that.
that is really a seperate issue, i am still unsure about which speakers to go with, the modela MT's or an MTM, The biggest reason I don't want the BAMTM is that I can't find a kit that would work as an appropriate center channel. I could use a Modela MT with a Matching Tweeter, but I am afraid that given the unmatched impediance I will not get a proper Timber match between the three speakers. I know that the modela's come VERY highly recommended, and given that each speaker would be the same, matching them would be cake walk. I am just nervous of the output potential, given my large room with such small speakers.
as for the subwoofer, I purchased the unpowered SVS sub on ebay for $227. It's used, but appeared in excellent condition, and when you figure the buidling time and materials, while I might get a bigger subwoofer, I probably won't get one much better then the SV 12", not for under $250 plus amp costs.
I did some further reading of the thread over at HTguide about the modula MT's and they say they will probably have a max volume somewhere in the 90's, given the size of my room, I am nervous that it will not be loud enough, which has me looking back at the BAMTM, but I am still without any solid ideas for a center channel.
Jon has a MTM center channel based on the Modula MTM and I could use the Natalie P MTM's but that would add significantly to the price of my build (due to the fact that I would have to purchase an additional 3 RS180 drivers)
Jon has a MTM center channel based on the Modula MTM and I could use the Natalie P MTM's but that would add significantly to the price of my build (due to the fact that I would have to purchase an additional 3 RS180 drivers)
i took some pictures to show everybody the size of the closet and my intentions...
In the first pictures you will see the size of the closet, to give you an idea of size the screen pictured is a 90" diagonal screen.
In the last picture I posted my idea of how I would implement each speaker...
In the first pictures you will see the size of the closet, to give you an idea of size the screen pictured is a 90" diagonal screen.
In the last picture I posted my idea of how I would implement each speaker...
Attachments
and in this last picture I am trying to show what exactly I am hoping to accomplish. The closet will remain intact, however the speakers will so that half of the body will sit in front of the closet, the other half inside the closet. the subwoofer will sit in the small corner to the left, and the screen will more then likely be moved back to the back wall. The black fabric will be removed, and replace along the back wall, to hide the unsitely brick behind it.
i posted on another board and was told that this would kill my sound quality (putting speakers in a closet, will it?
i posted on another board and was told that this would kill my sound quality (putting speakers in a closet, will it?
Attachments
Don't sell yourself short, it looks like you have an awesome setup there.
Unfortunately, it looks like you have a hard floor and ceiling. This is a big factor in favor of MTMs, since the reduced vertical dispersion should help limit floor and ceiling interaction. Also, you'd want to have some flexibility in mounting height for the speakers. You might need to move the up or down by several inches, even a foot or more, from ear level.
You do have one advantage in that dedicated closet; you can put all kinds of acoustic foam on the back and side walls without having to look at it.
How acoustically transparent is the screen? Can you maybe have the center channel mounted vertically in the center of the screen? The horizontal orientation is really only preferred because it lets you place the center speakers closer to the center of the hard TV screen. With a suitable projector screen, you no longer have that problem and can place the speaker in its ideal spot.
I think that if you can have them all standing up, three natalie portmans across the front would give you awesome sound, and all the SPL you could ask for. Oh, and the system will be good enough that you'll get a noticeable upgrade in sound if you should ever have a surplus of cash and the desire to upgrade your receiver.
Unfortunately, it looks like you have a hard floor and ceiling. This is a big factor in favor of MTMs, since the reduced vertical dispersion should help limit floor and ceiling interaction. Also, you'd want to have some flexibility in mounting height for the speakers. You might need to move the up or down by several inches, even a foot or more, from ear level.
You do have one advantage in that dedicated closet; you can put all kinds of acoustic foam on the back and side walls without having to look at it.
How acoustically transparent is the screen? Can you maybe have the center channel mounted vertically in the center of the screen? The horizontal orientation is really only preferred because it lets you place the center speakers closer to the center of the hard TV screen. With a suitable projector screen, you no longer have that problem and can place the speaker in its ideal spot.
I think that if you can have them all standing up, three natalie portmans across the front would give you awesome sound, and all the SPL you could ask for. Oh, and the system will be good enough that you'll get a noticeable upgrade in sound if you should ever have a surplus of cash and the desire to upgrade your receiver.
joe carrow said:
Currently I do have a hard floor and ceiling, however carpet, is in the plan very shortly
joe carrow said:
what benefit would that have? will that deaden the sound?
joe carrow said:
The screen is not very accoustically transparent at all. It's a very thick DIY product that is sold on ebay. I had the current center channel behind it and the quality leaves something to the imagination, and I have used that center channel in the past and am very happy with it's sound quality. For a very low cost speaker it sounds very nice, just doesn't match anything I have.
joe carrow said:
As for the natalie portmans, I was actually looking at the BAMTM's from Zaph audio, as I fear that the natalie P's are probably out of my budget, If I could find a center to match the BAMTM's I would probably go with that.
why would I upgrade my receiver? I intend on adding external amplification in the future but I have had the Yamaha with the existing equipment in my last home and it sounded quite good, it's just with the new home and new basement the quality isn't there like it was in the past
joe carrow said:
it's probably 14' by only about 2~3' deep so no it's not terrible, and the room is only slightly wider then the closet. If you notice, the walls in the room are wood (not drywall) and normally I would just pull out the walls that make it a closet and drywall the backs and make it one big room, however, because of the wood, the wood to drywall transition wouldn't look nice, actually it wouldn't get much in the way of the SAF.
clearwaterms said:
Yes, that's the idea. The closet has a strong possibility of cavity resonance, as well as odd reflections and diffraction off of the corner where the closet meets the exterior wall. It will let you hear just the speakers without the (less than ideal) contribution of the back wall.
That's really all I meant, was upgrading the amplification. I'm sure the receiver is fine, but the 4 ohm impedance of MTMs is a hard load and probably won't let the receiver's amplification sound its best. For any of these speakers, you'll be well served by an amp that will do 200-250 watts into 4 ohms. A high enough quality 125 watt (as measured at 8 ohm) amp will do this.
It's all about headroom. In the past I had a 250 watt amp with my Modula MTs. It was capable of nearly 500 watts into 4 ohms, and had way more power than I needed. The main difference between in and the 100 watt receiver I have now is the dynamic impact of sharp events. Things like drums with a sharp initial transient just sounded more "alive" with the bigger amp. Even though I was using 2 or 4 watts 99.5% of the time, that tiny fraction of a second when the bass drum beater was striking the head the power wanted to be well over 100 watts. It still sounds good with the receiver, but there's something to be said for bigger better amps.
Joe,
thank you for all of your help, you sound very knowledgable about these things, and your answers are very well defined and very informative. I appreciate immensly all of your help
Could I take some heavy wool and staple it to the back wall, making sure it has lots of folds? So it would look very bunched up?
or what about putting some fiberglass wall insulation and then putting some fabric over that (so you don't see the paper side of the insulation?
I am trying to do this on a fairly extreme budget (as you can probably tell) I am willing to sacrifice a litle for large improvements, but at the same time, I don't want to spend large amounts of money on things that will not greatly improve the over all effect.
this makes alot of sense to me, with the existing Pioneer I have down there, in order to get an audible level that I like I have to turn it to approx. 80% of it's max volume. I assume that means I only have approx. 20% of available wattage left for those impact sound effects, and in my old place that only needed to be at like 20% of the max volume, you had 80% head room to get those impact sounds, where as with the new reciever and the newer larger room, I don't have those impact sounds.
thank you for all of your help, you sound very knowledgable about these things, and your answers are very well defined and very informative. I appreciate immensly all of your help
joe carrow said:
Could I take some heavy wool and staple it to the back wall, making sure it has lots of folds? So it would look very bunched up?
or what about putting some fiberglass wall insulation and then putting some fabric over that (so you don't see the paper side of the insulation?
I am trying to do this on a fairly extreme budget (as you can probably tell) I am willing to sacrifice a litle for large improvements, but at the same time, I don't want to spend large amounts of money on things that will not greatly improve the over all effect.
joe carrow said:
this makes alot of sense to me, with the existing Pioneer I have down there, in order to get an audible level that I like I have to turn it to approx. 80% of it's max volume. I assume that means I only have approx. 20% of available wattage left for those impact sound effects, and in my old place that only needed to be at like 20% of the max volume, you had 80% head room to get those impact sounds, where as with the new reciever and the newer larger room, I don't have those impact sounds.
so my game plan is to somehow insulate the closet to deaden the sound in it... I will probably end up putting either insulation with black fabric over it, or possibly putting heavy black wool there instead. I have not decided yet.
My question then goes back to the original question.
I don't really have the budget for a Natalie P MTM (let alone the Modula MTM)
I have three options now... here are my thoughts for each option
#1, Dayton DIII fronts and UniCC center (this is a budget setup) the sound quality probably will not be there compared to the Modula MT's it uses the older dayton drivers, and not the RS drivers
#2, The modula MT's, the more I read about these speakers, the more I want to build them just to hear the hype. I am new to DIY, and decidely new to the whole hi-def world, having heard friends and family's setups with speakers ranging from paradigm's to mirage, to HK's. It sounds like a set of these will put me in those ranks for decidely less money. however, the max SPL might not be enough for my large enviroment
finally, #3, the BAMTM, which sounds like an excellent project, it's a zaph audio, and his reputation on the internet is very high, i have read some things that say he is better then some professional audio designers in his builds... the only problem with the BAMTM is that there is no suitable center channel option.
I can't use a MTM vertically as a center channel because it simply will not work. the screen is not accoustically transparent in any way, and there isn't enough space to put it above or below the screen, without putting the screen to high, or to low for comfort.
My question then goes back to the original question.
I don't really have the budget for a Natalie P MTM (let alone the Modula MTM)
I have three options now... here are my thoughts for each option
#1, Dayton DIII fronts and UniCC center (this is a budget setup) the sound quality probably will not be there compared to the Modula MT's it uses the older dayton drivers, and not the RS drivers
#2, The modula MT's, the more I read about these speakers, the more I want to build them just to hear the hype. I am new to DIY, and decidely new to the whole hi-def world, having heard friends and family's setups with speakers ranging from paradigm's to mirage, to HK's. It sounds like a set of these will put me in those ranks for decidely less money. however, the max SPL might not be enough for my large enviroment
finally, #3, the BAMTM, which sounds like an excellent project, it's a zaph audio, and his reputation on the internet is very high, i have read some things that say he is better then some professional audio designers in his builds... the only problem with the BAMTM is that there is no suitable center channel option.
I can't use a MTM vertically as a center channel because it simply will not work. the screen is not accoustically transparent in any way, and there isn't enough space to put it above or below the screen, without putting the screen to high, or to low for comfort.
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