It doesn't have to be expensive- I think that a roll of fiberglass batting would work fine. You could tack up strips of it, and cover it in cloth. I think you can get a roll for around $15, and that might be enough for the closet. I haven't purchased it before, so I don't know how much is on a roll. Anyway, it's very fire resistant compared to foams and synthetic fibers, so that's good.
I'm glad to help- these forums have been a huge help to me, and it's the least I can do to try to give back a little bit to people who are entering the hobby.
It's sure nice to sit down and enjoy a movie once it's all done
.
I'm glad to help- these forums have been a huge help to me, and it's the least I can do to try to give back a little bit to people who are entering the hobby.
It's sure nice to sit down and enjoy a movie once it's all done
.joe carrow said:It doesn't have to be expensive- I think that a roll of fiberglass batting would work fine. You could tack up strips of it, and cover it in cloth. I think you can get a roll for around $15, and that might be enough for the closet. I haven't purchased it before, so I don't know how much is on a roll. Anyway, it's very fire resistant compared to foams and synthetic fibers, so that's good.
I'm glad to help- these forums have been a huge help to me, and it's the least I can do to try to give back a little bit to people who are entering the hobby.
It's sure nice to sit down and enjoy a movie once it's all done
Joe,
i want to be sure we are talking about the same thing. I am talking about fiberglass insulation, it comes in rolls and is purchased at big box stores.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
and then put fabric over that? How would that differ from putting that up and then putting up drywall?
That's the stuff, but you DON't want the paper backing facing the room. You've got to be careful about the dust, and you want to make sure you contain it so that the dust doesn't get you or your room.
The difference is that the sound is free to go *into* the fibers, whereas most of it would normally just bounce off the drywall before it got to the fiberglass.
If you search around, a lot of folks have lined their subwoofers and bass cabinets with this stuff.
I guess I should warn you to take this advice with a grain of salt. I haven't actually used this stuff for room treatment. For that matter, I haven't really been able to negotiate room treatment with my girlfriend- I was lucky to be able to get the speakers I wanted where I wanted them! Still, this stuff looks a lot cheaper per square foot than acoustic foam
Again, and I was serious- do you camp? Good sleeping bags should always be left flat or hanging (not stuffed in their compression bags) in order to maintain their fluffiness and warmth. If you already own a couple of sleeping bags, this looks like a great place to store them, and then you're only out the cost of a couple of wall hooks! It might not be the *most* effective, but when you're on a budget you sometimes need to try a few things while you're looking for serendipity.
The difference is that the sound is free to go *into* the fibers, whereas most of it would normally just bounce off the drywall before it got to the fiberglass.
If you search around, a lot of folks have lined their subwoofers and bass cabinets with this stuff.
I guess I should warn you to take this advice with a grain of salt. I haven't actually used this stuff for room treatment. For that matter, I haven't really been able to negotiate room treatment with my girlfriend- I was lucky to be able to get the speakers I wanted where I wanted them! Still, this stuff looks a lot cheaper per square foot than acoustic foam
Again, and I was serious- do you camp? Good sleeping bags should always be left flat or hanging (not stuffed in their compression bags) in order to maintain their fluffiness and warmth. If you already own a couple of sleeping bags, this looks like a great place to store them, and then you're only out the cost of a couple of wall hooks! It might not be the *most* effective, but when you're on a budget you sometimes need to try a few things while you're looking for serendipity.
joe carrow said:
I have seen alot of people using that, so I will put it in with the fiberglass showing, and then put some black fabric over that should I put the fabric tight? or loose? part of me thinks hanging it nice and loose with lots of folds will not only look nice, but help to trap even more sound pressure, also it will have the added benefit of a better solution to hide the exposed insulation (as that stuff isn't exactly what you want people to have to see alot of)
joe carrow said:
yes I do camp, and yes i have sleeping bags, and it's not a terrible idea, but i don't think I have enough sleeping bags to cover up the entire area.
and finally, I think i have decided to go with the modula MT's, I am not sure if they will have the SPL's that I am looking for, however I fell that given my budget and desire for high quality sound they are the best of a sacrifice. If they end up sounding nice, but not being loud enough, I can always go ahead and upgrade to the Natalie P's or Modula MTM's and just move the MT's to surrond duty...
What you do with the cloth fabric is up to you- just so long as the fiberglass is free to be fluffy so that it can soak up the sound, it shouldn't matter if the cloth in front of it is tight or draped.
I just recently received an SPL meter (early christmas gift from my girlfriend!), and I was surprised at the low level I listen to movies. My average SPL during dialog was 55-60 db, and the loud parts got up to 75-80 db. This was at a distance of about 2 meters from the speakers, and the receiver was set to -34db. I often have it as high as -20 for movies, but it was late and I didn't feel like turning it up all the way.
I'm not sure if I understand how to use my SPL meter properly yet, but my preliminary impression is that I really don't listen that loudly. Having said that, I've only ever heard my Modula MTs run into trouble once. I was watching Cold Mountain at high volume (-15 db), and the large gunpowder explosion caused some bad distortion from overexcursion. If I'd been running my speakers in "small" mode with a subwoofer, I have no doubt that it would have been fine.
Bottom line- unless you like it REALLY loud, I think you're going to like the Modula MTs!
I just recently received an SPL meter (early christmas gift from my girlfriend!), and I was surprised at the low level I listen to movies. My average SPL during dialog was 55-60 db, and the loud parts got up to 75-80 db. This was at a distance of about 2 meters from the speakers, and the receiver was set to -34db. I often have it as high as -20 for movies, but it was late and I didn't feel like turning it up all the way.
I'm not sure if I understand how to use my SPL meter properly yet, but my preliminary impression is that I really don't listen that loudly. Having said that, I've only ever heard my Modula MTs run into trouble once. I was watching Cold Mountain at high volume (-15 db), and the large gunpowder explosion caused some bad distortion from overexcursion. If I'd been running my speakers in "small" mode with a subwoofer, I have no doubt that it would have been fine.
Bottom line- unless you like it REALLY loud, I think you're going to like the Modula MTs!
joe carrow said:
it's not that I like it really loud, it's that I like the ability to play it really loud. The standard test scene for any time we help a friend setup a surround sound system is the gone in sixty seconds with nicolas cage, right as he takes the classic car. In a proper system you should almost feel the rumble of the engine (im a car guy) and thats our standard test scene. with my old subwoofer and the speakers behind that fabric, you could hear it, and i was told it was quite loud, but I was looking for that tactile feel, which hopefully the new subwoofer will supply.
I will create a new thread when I am finished (probably be a few weeks) and will link to it in this thread.
thanks again for all of your help.
just to refresh this thread.
by the end of this week, I will have the closet redone, my intenion is to insulate all the walls. I am going to glue the paper side of paper backed housing insulation to the walls, to fully insulate the closet, and then over that I am going to drape black fabric to hide the insulation. Is that safe?
also, what about dipoles for this situation? would those work?
by the end of this week, I will have the closet redone, my intenion is to insulate all the walls. I am going to glue the paper side of paper backed housing insulation to the walls, to fully insulate the closet, and then over that I am going to drape black fabric to hide the insulation. Is that safe?
also, what about dipoles for this situation? would those work?
clearwaterms said:
Hey, I just saw your email. I've been kind of busy at work since the holidays, so you're right- I haven't been on here much.
About the insulation- it sounds safe, just be careful with the dust from the fiberglass. Glasses, a cheap mask, and gloves could save you some irritation.
About dipoles- they need some space to breathe. It doesn't sound like you have quite enough room for them, but if I were you I'd go check linkwitzlab.com where he talks about how the Orions work in different rooms.
Regardless, I don't know of any low cost options for dipoles. Even if you had six free channels of amplification, I don't think you could get below $700 for a stereo pair of three-way dipoles. Before you ask, a dipole 2-way would have a really hard time crossing over to a sub.
joe carrow said:
as for the safety, im not worried about me working with it, more im worried about others long term. Basically im going to have exposed fiberglass insulation that is covered with thin fabric. I wondered if that was safe.
the only reason i ask is because I saw a few threads over at another website titled the maggie projects. THey took a Magnepan MMG (ESL dipole) and then crossed it over to a sub and used that. It was an interesting idea, and the MMG's can be had brand new for $550, add a few hundred extra in for the cost of two small subs on each side (dipole configuration)
Here are the links for what I was refering to...
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22186&highlight=maggie
I know that the cost of the project is higher then a set of Modula MT's or even a set of Nat P's. Considering the cost of the MMG panel's would be about $550 by them selves, and then on top of that to have to add two subwoofers at $xxx and then an active cross over, multiple amplifiers.
I was just curious to the feasability. Soak up knowledge through questions. and if you stumble upon a really great idea along the way all the better
I think that as long as you have some cloth as fine as a bedsheet tacked all the way around the border, you should be fine. The stuff isn't too volatile as long as it's not being handled, and there's nothing blowing directly on it like an air conditioner.
The old acoustic panels in my high school band room were full of this kind of fiberglass. Of course, it was built in the 60s/70s, and portions of our school were shut down in the 90s for asbestos abatement... but they never replaced those acoustic panels, so they couldn't have been that bad. They just had screens like home windows, no fancy cloth.
I would say that the MMGs are definitely feasible for you- if you look, there's even a thread where Thomas mounted the MMG flush with a wall, using fiberglass to stuff the 3 to 5 inches behind the panel. That's definitely not a dipole anymore, and it worked out alright.
If you can increase your budget, many options open up. For now, though, I think a box speaker will be the cheapest acceptable solution since it doesn't need more channels of amplification or an active crossover.
Resale value on the MMGs is excellent, and their return policy is supposed to be fairly good. If you don't mind floating the cost until you make up your mind, the cost of shipping wouldn't be a huge barrier to getting the speakers in your home to try out.
Speaking of shipping, Parts Express free shipping ends tomorrow!
The old acoustic panels in my high school band room were full of this kind of fiberglass. Of course, it was built in the 60s/70s, and portions of our school were shut down in the 90s for asbestos abatement... but they never replaced those acoustic panels, so they couldn't have been that bad. They just had screens like home windows, no fancy cloth.
I would say that the MMGs are definitely feasible for you- if you look, there's even a thread where Thomas mounted the MMG flush with a wall, using fiberglass to stuff the 3 to 5 inches behind the panel. That's definitely not a dipole anymore, and it worked out alright.
If you can increase your budget, many options open up. For now, though, I think a box speaker will be the cheapest acceptable solution since it doesn't need more channels of amplification or an active crossover.
Resale value on the MMGs is excellent, and their return policy is supposed to be fairly good. If you don't mind floating the cost until you make up your mind, the cost of shipping wouldn't be a huge barrier to getting the speakers in your home to try out.
Speaking of shipping, Parts Express free shipping ends tomorrow!
joe carrow said:
I saw the thread about the MMG-W's and basically Thomas stated that he fealt the MMG's were just a far better purchase being a two way. He also listed an upgrade to the cross over that he said sounded quite good.
I have a question for you. If I wanted to run the MMG-w's as a center channel, putting them on either side of the screen, assuming I had external amplifiers, could I just get a y cable to split the RCA pre-out signal from my reciever to the amp, and then have each amped? can you parrallel pre-amp signal? if you can't how do you split a single channel into multiple speakers? without loosing quality.
Also, being that the center channel is mostly just vocals, I would think the MMG-W's would be a pretty good match as center channel duty, am I wrong? They offer a MMGc speaker that would be a possability as well.
Sorry, I don't have any experience with the Magnepans, although I trust the judgement of the folks who praise their sound quality.
I also don't have any experience with the finer points of tuning a 5.1 surround system. I've mostly experimented with stereo, and have only recently added surround speakers. I don't use a center channel, but I'll be building one soon.
You can usually split a pre-amp signal with a Y-cable. Sometimes the equipment doesn't like it, but if the signal comes from a decent source you should be fine. Also, you can run speakers in parallel for a 4 ohm load. If you have a decent amp, this shouldn't be a problem. If you just use the receiver to drive them, it might be better to go for something else.
I hope someone else steps in here. I really don't know a lot about ESLs or 5.1 setup.
I also don't have any experience with the finer points of tuning a 5.1 surround system. I've mostly experimented with stereo, and have only recently added surround speakers. I don't use a center channel, but I'll be building one soon.
You can usually split a pre-amp signal with a Y-cable. Sometimes the equipment doesn't like it, but if the signal comes from a decent source you should be fine. Also, you can run speakers in parallel for a 4 ohm load. If you have a decent amp, this shouldn't be a problem. If you just use the receiver to drive them, it might be better to go for something else.
I hope someone else steps in here. I really don't know a lot about ESLs or 5.1 setup.
I was thinking about getting some Magnepans for a HT setup but they are notoriously inefficient. I saw a post (forgot where... maybe the HT forum) from a owner of several maggies and he said that they are best for stereo music (2 channel) but need upwards of 250W+ per speaker. He also mentioned that while they do go down fairly low ~50Hz that the sound is more of a tight articulate midbass. Not the body rocking bass that you and most people want from a HT system. I believe he also said they do not integrate well with mono subwoofers.
So they are definitely worth the price and have a unique awesome sound but they are not good for HT.
So they are definitely worth the price and have a unique awesome sound but they are not good for HT.
clearwaterms said:
Right now, I am leaning towards 5 of Mark's Dayton RS MTs and a pair of bipole OB subs. My HT room is my living room. It is fairly large (17'x27' with 10' cielings) and is open to the Kitchen so I am also looking for an efficient set of speakers.
But all of my audio aspirations are on hold until after my wedding on 4.20.07
omarmipi said:
Right now, I am leaning towards 5 of Mark's Dayton RS MTs and a pair of bipole OB subs. My HT room is my living room. It is fairly large (17'x27' with 10' cielings) and is open to the Kitchen so I am also looking for an efficient set of speakers.
But all of my audio aspirations are on hold until after my wedding on 4.20.07
i am not familar with Mark's Dayton RS MT's, are they similar to Jon Marsh's Modula MT's? with either the RS28 tweeter or seas 27 tweeter?
as for me, I was thinking about using three of john marsh's up front and I currently have a SVs subwoofer to handle the lows. and them something low cost for the back four speakers (was thinking about best buy insignia's or something along those lines)
clearwaterms said:
Yes, they are similar to John Marsh's Dayton RS MTs. Here's the link:
Mark K's RS225/RS28A. I am sure the xover design will be improved upon once I start... probably this time next year. I might go with John's design also because I like the Seas 27 tweeter but have yet to hear the Dayton RS tweeter. But it will probably come down to PE having a sale w/ free shipping (I am scrapping together $99 bucks to take advantage of the free shipping - LAST DAY).
Where will the audience be in relation to the rear wall? I have searched for information on point-source vs. dipole vs. coincidental surrounds and this page explains the cons & pros the best: Home Theater Design and Criteria .
What amplifier(s) have you decided to get? I picked up a HK AVR 310 a month ago because it has pre-outs, which my current Onkyo does not. But again, I will not have the extra funds till the end of the year.
EDIT:
OH, and while the Insignia's are good budget speakers, you should only use them temporarly in your setup. They will sound slightly different then the L/C/R because of the cone material. However, carbon fiber is probably the closest material to metal that I have heard. I do not have any applications for my pair of Insignia's. My current L/C/R are poly (Infinity RS series) and I picked up some older SS Infinitys for the rear.
omarmipi said:
first let me congratulate you on your wedding...
as for the listeners to the rear wall, the current setup has a couch about 60% from the front wall, so they are about 9' to the rear wall. the edge listeners (there are two recliners flanking the left and right side of the couch) are very close to the surrond sound side channels.
My current reciever (Yamaha HTR 5670) has pre outs and eventually I was planning on using some gainclones. I have thought about looking for some quality class ab DIY kits that I might use instead, but I was really thinking more like a pair of the LM4780 kits from peter daniels. They are ~$75 a kit and all you need is a transformer and a case, and each kit will yeild about 60 watts per channel at 4 channels (assuming proper power supply)
my plan was to build the speakers and hook them up to my existing reciever and test there sound quality first, and also the amount of power needed. If the speakers I choose need 80% of the power that my yamaha (100watts per channel) needs, then there is no way I can get away with just 60 watts per channel, I will need to investigate something more powerful.
I am still considering the maggie's as well. I read an article yesterday off of there website and then end of the article compared the maggies to the athena micra 5.1 setup. (4 small satalittes and a small mtm center channel) and a 100w subwoofer. I am currently running this system upstairs in my living room and am very happy with it's performance (considering I paid less then $400 for the entire system) it sounds very good. They said the MMG-w's sounded better. I know alot of people don't like them with a sealed enclosure woofer below, they seem to prefer a dipole woofer to assist the low end of the MMG's, so that is something else to consider as well. and then I would need an active cross over and an extra pair of amp channels, but if the end justifies the means then it's all worth it to me
***update***
So I finished rebuilding the closet. I have not started building the speakers yet, but I did go ahead and reuse what I have. The front consists of a SVS 25-31 passive subwoofer on the left. The left and right channels are cheap Pioneer 3 ways and the center channel a JBL EC35 center channel. The sitting position is approx. 11 feet from the speakers and about 13' from the screen. The screen is a 90" diagonal and the projector is an infocus 4805 (480p) projector.
here is a picture of it completed. The walls still need to be painted, and I have some very red fabric that will create a curtain appearence and that will be installed this week.
So I finished rebuilding the closet. I have not started building the speakers yet, but I did go ahead and reuse what I have. The front consists of a SVS 25-31 passive subwoofer on the left. The left and right channels are cheap Pioneer 3 ways and the center channel a JBL EC35 center channel. The sitting position is approx. 11 feet from the speakers and about 13' from the screen. The screen is a 90" diagonal and the projector is an infocus 4805 (480p) projector.
here is a picture of it completed. The walls still need to be painted, and I have some very red fabric that will create a curtain appearence and that will be installed this week.
Attachments
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.