hi everyone!
yesterday while visiting my local bang and olufsen store i had the chance do demo the beolab 5. the salesman blindfolded me and spun me around and i couldnt tell from which direction the sound was coming from. (all this from one speaker!!!!)
at this point visit the b&o website and check out their design
http://www.bang-olufsen.com/web2/systems/product.asp?section=systems&sub=ls&prodid=544
This motivated me to build speakers utilizing the same design. It may seem hard, but my dad operates a metal working factory, so anythin with metal is taken care of.
My only question would be how to construct the base.
Any ideas?
yesterday while visiting my local bang and olufsen store i had the chance do demo the beolab 5. the salesman blindfolded me and spun me around and i couldnt tell from which direction the sound was coming from. (all this from one speaker!!!!)
at this point visit the b&o website and check out their design
http://www.bang-olufsen.com/web2/systems/product.asp?section=systems&sub=ls&prodid=544
This motivated me to build speakers utilizing the same design. It may seem hard, but my dad operates a metal working factory, so anythin with metal is taken care of.
My only question would be how to construct the base.
Any ideas?
It is all very nice, only you forget one thing: All recordings are mixed on a normal stereo or surround speaker setup. Mixing engineers spend lots of time to make a final mix down, reproducing them on speakersystems like Bose, beolab5 and other systems wich make use of reflecting areas has nothing to do with hifi or highend audio. It is a total lack of respect for the work from the engineer, producer and musicians. It will not sound like the makers intended.
GRG
GRG
Construction is no problem, compared to the rest. Here are the challenges, as I see them, in constructing this clone.
1) Locating a suitable midrange driver. B&O uses a 3" dome midrange, I don't see a lot of those around.
2) Defining the actual geometry of the diffusers. They use a really specific geometry to disperse the sound in a nearly omnidirectional radiation pattern. This could be difficult to reverse engineer, and is probably impractical without some FEA software and good measurement tools.
3) Crossover design. This is a three-way passive crossover with an active crossover to the sub. Three ways definitely aren't for beginners, and this one might have a few twists and turns.
What's your budget for this project? At least $5,000? I think it can be done. Although it won't be easy, I've heard the Beolab 5 and I think it would be worth the trouble.
1) Locating a suitable midrange driver. B&O uses a 3" dome midrange, I don't see a lot of those around.
2) Defining the actual geometry of the diffusers. They use a really specific geometry to disperse the sound in a nearly omnidirectional radiation pattern. This could be difficult to reverse engineer, and is probably impractical without some FEA software and good measurement tools.
3) Crossover design. This is a three-way passive crossover with an active crossover to the sub. Three ways definitely aren't for beginners, and this one might have a few twists and turns.
What's your budget for this project? At least $5,000? I think it can be done. Although it won't be easy, I've heard the Beolab 5 and I think it would be worth the trouble.
ds23man said:
Does this mean this is not a hi-fi or high-end speaker? http://www.mbl-germany.de/recommended.html/recom_101.html
If you want to reproduce what the sound engineers hear, you'll need these: http://www.skidmore.edu/academics/music/att/ns10.html
ds23man said:
I respectfully disagree. People listen to their speakers in a real world room, not an anechoic chamber. The way I see it, if you can't get "I'm really there", then "They're really here" is a close second. I've heard Bose, and I've heard Cambridge Soundworks, and I can honestly say that the Beolab 5 bears far more comparison to the Cambridge Soundworks than the Bose.
If you check out Linkwitzlab.com, you'll see someone smarter than myself exploring this dichotomy.
lol 5000 dollars.
im a senior.
i can tailor the parts to fit different size drivers.
the parts will cost me a total of 5 dollars except for the base and well, drivers.
wait a minute. i just got a brain blast. instead of ithe huge base i can mount it on the wall.
SO. how would i go choosing the drivers?
im a senior.
i can tailor the parts to fit different size drivers.
the parts will cost me a total of 5 dollars except for the base and well, drivers.
wait a minute. i just got a brain blast. instead of ithe huge base i can mount it on the wall.
SO. how would i go choosing the drivers?
I hate to break it to you, but that "huge base" was actually the enclosure for the subwoofer.
Assuming you had free enclosures, I estimate the following minimum costs to clone the Beolab 5:
2 subs at $150 each
2 midbasses at $50 each
2 dome mids at $45 each
2 tweeters at $30 each
That's nearly $550 in drivers, if you cut some corners. To make it a worthwhile project, double that cost- at least for the subs.
That completely ignores the built-in 1000 watt amplifiers and digital signal processors. How much do you think those will cost?
Assuming you had free enclosures, I estimate the following minimum costs to clone the Beolab 5:
2 subs at $150 each
2 midbasses at $50 each
2 dome mids at $45 each
2 tweeters at $30 each
That's nearly $550 in drivers, if you cut some corners. To make it a worthwhile project, double that cost- at least for the subs.
That completely ignores the built-in 1000 watt amplifiers and digital signal processors. How much do you think those will cost?
Short answer- yes.
More explanation-
-A driver's impedance is also important. You'd have a hard time finding two drivers with the same impedance and response.
-Driver sizes, baffle shape, and spacing on the baffle are all accounted for in the crossover of a serious speaker. Change any of these, and it moves away from the intended design.
What do you want out of this project? Something that sounds really good, or something that looks really cool? If it's more about sound than looks, there are a lot of excellent projects out there to meet your budget. If it's more about looks that cuts it down, but they're still out there.
Bottom line, I think you'll get the best sound from an established project.
More explanation-
-A driver's impedance is also important. You'd have a hard time finding two drivers with the same impedance and response.
-Driver sizes, baffle shape, and spacing on the baffle are all accounted for in the crossover of a serious speaker. Change any of these, and it moves away from the intended design.
What do you want out of this project? Something that sounds really good, or something that looks really cool? If it's more about sound than looks, there are a lot of excellent projects out there to meet your budget. If it's more about looks that cuts it down, but they're still out there.
Bottom line, I think you'll get the best sound from an established project.
If it's omnidirectional you're after, maybe look at the Linkwitz Pluto. Or look at a dipole design, though they tend to get more complex and expensive.
Not being able to tell where the sound is coming from is great, but doesn't necessarily have to be the ultimate goal - you can tell where the sound is coming from when you go see any live music performance - it's accurate reproduction that makes loudspeakers seem to disappear.
Your idea to clone the B & O speaker is commendable, but realize that without having good science to guide you, it wont be a clone but rather an experiment who's outcome is very uncertain; after hundreds of dollars and many labor hours you may have a speaker that sounds nothing like what you heard in the store, and not to your liking at all.
Not being able to tell where the sound is coming from is great, but doesn't necessarily have to be the ultimate goal - you can tell where the sound is coming from when you go see any live music performance - it's accurate reproduction that makes loudspeakers seem to disappear.
Your idea to clone the B & O speaker is commendable, but realize that without having good science to guide you, it wont be a clone but rather an experiment who's outcome is very uncertain; after hundreds of dollars and many labor hours you may have a speaker that sounds nothing like what you heard in the store, and not to your liking at all.
Amazing isn't it - all these people who say you can't do it without knowing your capabilities nor your resources.
More amazing - these people saying you shouldn't do it because, because.... well just because they know better. (?)
Most amazing is that these comments are from members of a DIY forum. Are we to presume that DIY is only to make or to reproduce easy proven projects. I guess what you should do is whatever they did because only they have the wherewithal.....
And this takes the cake.
fred p
More amazing - these people saying you shouldn't do it because, because.... well just because they know better. (?)
Most amazing is that these comments are from members of a DIY forum. Are we to presume that DIY is only to make or to reproduce easy proven projects. I guess what you should do is whatever they did because only they have the wherewithal.....
And this takes the cake.
fred p
ppfred said:Amazing isn't it - all these people who say you can't do it without knowing your capabilities nor your resources.
More amazing - these people saying you shouldn't do it because, because.... well just because they know better. (?)
Most amazing is that these comments are from members of a DIY forum. Are we to presume that DIY is only to make or to reproduce easy proven projects. I guess what you should do is whatever they did because only they have the wherewithal.....
And this takes the cake.
fred p
A little bit of thinking for you: All movies mastered in dolby ( stereo, surround etc) are only allowed to be shown in movietheaters with soundsystems complying to the dolby standards. This is done to protect the work from the artists and the result is the same as they intended. As a soundengineer, I do not take any system using reflections/soundfields seriously, because they mess up my painstakingly made soundstage as I intended. It may sound nice to some people, but it has nothing to do with a perfect reproduction of the recording. Even dipole systems are bad in this respect. They create extra reverb which is not in the recording.
GRG
These speakers might work (the original I mean). The only thing these lenses do is manage directivity. Nothing wrong with that, you just eliminate a lot of acoustic problems the listening room throws at the sound reproduction.
Also studio monitors often have directivity management. Look e.g. Klein und Hummel O 500 C:
So no problem there.
I see another challenge to this project. I believe very well that you're capable to reproduce the acoustic lenses (there's even a patent document about it, so the technology is public), BUT there's quite an electronic part as well. 4-way active crossovers with digital ICE-power amps and DSP based bass management. I don't know to what extent the DSP system also executes the cross-overs (would be really smart, because then they can implement phase-linear FIR filters and compensate for timing issues between all quite non-ideally located driver postions).
According to the B&O specs, the inputs to these speakers are digital. Therefore, I think my assertions regarding digital signal processing inside the speakers are quite accurate.
So builidng the cabinets is one, but for a good result I think you might need to go quite deep on the electronic level.
Also studio monitors often have directivity management. Look e.g. Klein und Hummel O 500 C:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
So no problem there.
I see another challenge to this project. I believe very well that you're capable to reproduce the acoustic lenses (there's even a patent document about it, so the technology is public), BUT there's quite an electronic part as well. 4-way active crossovers with digital ICE-power amps and DSP based bass management. I don't know to what extent the DSP system also executes the cross-overs (would be really smart, because then they can implement phase-linear FIR filters and compensate for timing issues between all quite non-ideally located driver postions).
According to the B&O specs, the inputs to these speakers are digital. Therefore, I think my assertions regarding digital signal processing inside the speakers are quite accurate.
So builidng the cabinets is one, but for a good result I think you might need to go quite deep on the electronic level.
ds23man said:
I guess there's only one way to perfectly reproduce a painstakingly precisely engineered recording, and that is on the exact same equipment on which monitoring has taken place, placed in exactly the same listening room. All other equipment and environments will mean a degradation of the original reproduction.
However, the essence is somewhere else I think. If a loudspeaker system is capable of reproducing within certain tolerances the original signal, you can speak of a true sound reproduction. There are a lot of "conventional high-end" systems that are not true to form compared to studio monitors, but are capable of communicating the essence of the recording, and allow the listener to experience the soul of the recording, and therefore allow the listener to be touched by what the artist intended to communicate.
I think you're a bit harsh on these B&O speakers because they don't look like anything conventional. However, managing directivity is a very healthy way to manage reproduction accuracy and a good way to minimise the devastating impact most listening environments have on said reproduction.
I agree that Bose-like systems where the influence of the environment is MAXIMISED are not to be taken seriously.
However, these B&O speakers are slightly different. Even in renown stereo media they received quite positive reviews, so they must do something right.
So legendaryfrog,
I'm not here to discourage you. I just want to point out that this is quite a challenging project, from which a lot of knowledge can be generated.
I wellcome that. These kind of projects will be an inspiration for lots of others.
However, I think that just reproducing those UFO's and sticking in some drivers using some ready-made passive crossover will fall short compared to the original.
I'm not here to discourage you. I just want to point out that this is quite a challenging project, from which a lot of knowledge can be generated.
I wellcome that. These kind of projects will be an inspiration for lots of others.
However, I think that just reproducing those UFO's and sticking in some drivers using some ready-made passive crossover will fall short compared to the original.
I would say have a go, what do you have to lose (drivers Xover components are easy recycled into new projects)
The dome mids looks VERY like the old 3" dome by Vifa (DM-75-XXXXX I think) the tweet is probably a vifa too, the midbass and sub I have no idea about.
For processing I would guess time alignment is not needed, all drivers (with the exception of the midbass) are in one plane, so you only need delay the midbass slightly or tweek your cabinet design to get it back inline with your mid and tweet.
I would suggest using an active Xover however, IMHO it would greatly simplify tweeking (maybe go down the PC multi output soundcard route to start with an build a passive Xover based upon the PC based testing).
They will never be critical monitoring speakers from a studio perspective but those B&Os do sound nice (much better than I expected they would) the acoustic lenses and fron firing midbass make them no more omnidirectional than most speakers, they do have a very even response as you go off axis though.
The dome mids looks VERY like the old 3" dome by Vifa (DM-75-XXXXX I think) the tweet is probably a vifa too, the midbass and sub I have no idea about.
For processing I would guess time alignment is not needed, all drivers (with the exception of the midbass) are in one plane, so you only need delay the midbass slightly or tweek your cabinet design to get it back inline with your mid and tweet.
I would suggest using an active Xover however, IMHO it would greatly simplify tweeking (maybe go down the PC multi output soundcard route to start with an build a passive Xover based upon the PC based testing).
They will never be critical monitoring speakers from a studio perspective but those B&Os do sound nice (much better than I expected they would) the acoustic lenses and fron firing midbass make them no more omnidirectional than most speakers, they do have a very even response as you go off axis though.
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