These sound okay, but I haven't hear them in a tall room yet. They do sound as if there are quite a lot of additional harmonics which causes a piano to sound like a giant piano instead of a piano of our size.phn said:
phn said:
Yep, these Yamahas are much sought after here too. Some models are out of production.
legendaryfrog said:
I think the Beolab 5 design is has edge diffraction problems. You'd better measure them befor you consider cloning. The las time I listened to a pair, it sounded harsh. Don't know whether it was the ICE amps or diffraction.
You will get quite the same frequency response for 180 degrees, the trick is what design will not cause aditional acoustic loading on the driver, especially the mid range. Also the edge diffraction will effect the sound and imaging.
If everything is modified right, the shape will not look as attactive, but the sound will be quite relaxing and smooth.
ppfred said:"Amazing isn't it - all these people who say you can't do it without knowing your capabilities nor your resources."
No one said he can't do it - cloning means knowing more about the speaker than he apparently does. His capabilities and resources are apparent by his questions.
"More amazing - these people saying you shouldn't do it because, because.... well just because they know better. (?)"
We know better? Who claimed that? We were simply stating the challenges and pitfalls.
"Most amazing is that these comments are from members of a DIY forum. Are we to presume that DIY is only to make or to reproduce easy proven projects. I guess what you should do is whatever they did because only they have the wherewithal.....
Your words again, not ours. DIY is whatever one wants it to be, but we assume someone wants to get GOOD results when they embark on a project, and good results aren't easy. There are proven projects, done by knowledgable designers, and then there's guessing. Hit and miss often misses. We don't want to see someone be disappointed by guessing, so we give our honest responses to his questions - he did ask for advice and it was given - it's not always going to necessarily be what someone wants to hear.
I have read many threads here discouraging people from doing certain things - there's nothing wrong with that.
ok just so you know the beolabs are 8000 dollars each.
mine will cost about 150 dollars each. (cabinet is 10 dollars only)
I do not plan on using any digital amps and such. just basic speakers.
the only other differences will be no sub and three ufo plates with the large one housing a driver, and so on.
I will use a basic crossover with a built in t-amp.
simple enough?
ill post build pics after my dad gets permission from his boss to manufacture the plates.
mine will cost about 150 dollars each. (cabinet is 10 dollars only)
I do not plan on using any digital amps and such. just basic speakers.
the only other differences will be no sub and three ufo plates with the large one housing a driver, and so on.
I will use a basic crossover with a built in t-amp.
simple enough?
ill post build pics after my dad gets permission from his boss to manufacture the plates.
as a note, im 13, i go to high school, and i have huge DIY motivation. For me, Its more about the innovation of building this rather than acheiving (your) sought after frequency response, off-axis response, etc.
i am in no way an audiophile. For all i know, i dont think i could tell the difference between 10000 dollar speakers and 500 dollar speakers of the same size.
I do it, for the hell of it.
i am in no way an audiophile. For all i know, i dont think i could tell the difference between 10000 dollar speakers and 500 dollar speakers of the same size.
I do it, for the hell of it.
Apologies for the slightly OT deviation...
ds23man, I mean no disrespect, and I understand where you're coming from. I just thought you were taking the reflecting thing a bit far. A single guitar close-miked can then sound very like a live guitar when played in a room (whether by reflecting or other speakers) as recorded reverb doesn't interfere with the listeners' room reverb.
legendaryfrog,
One of the reasons I listen to my stereo is that I can pinpoint where the sound is coming from (not necessarily from the speakers, but the stereo image). Listening to someone moving across the stage while playing (in a live recording), and being able to hear the differences in sound between an alto or tenor sax. From your Beolabs experience, it sounds like this is not what you heard, just diffuse sound.
the other thing with building them is that they have an inbuilt EQ, which boosts or reduces the sound produced to attempt a 'flat' speaker output. Are you also attempting to build this into your DIY speakers.
Why is it a lack of respect? Buying the track or disc and playing the music is a sign of respect. Unless the persons' lounge room is an accurate reproduction of the mixing room then reflections from that room will change the way the music sounds. Isn't the musicians "single track at a time recording" in itself a "lack of respect" for the music? If they could play it, then they would record it live and not require studio massaging to get it to sound good.ds23man said:
ds23man, I mean no disrespect, and I understand where you're coming from. I just thought you were taking the reflecting thing a bit far. A single guitar close-miked can then sound very like a live guitar when played in a room (whether by reflecting or other speakers) as recorded reverb doesn't interfere with the listeners' room reverb.
legendaryfrog,
One of the reasons I listen to my stereo is that I can pinpoint where the sound is coming from (not necessarily from the speakers, but the stereo image). Listening to someone moving across the stage while playing (in a live recording), and being able to hear the differences in sound between an alto or tenor sax. From your Beolabs experience, it sounds like this is not what you heard, just diffuse sound.
the other thing with building them is that they have an inbuilt EQ, which boosts or reduces the sound produced to attempt a 'flat' speaker output. Are you also attempting to build this into your DIY speakers.
Yes, I agree with Joe C. -
It probably has sounded like everybody here was trying to discourage you from doing this, and to an extent that was true. But it was more out of concern that you would be disappointed with the results, so please take it as support.
It's perfectly OK for you to want to do this project for the reasons you've stated - to each his own. So yes go for it and let us know how it turns out, and take lots of pictures - perhaps when you're farther along some here will be able to help you with tweaking the crossover, etc. This is new and unique so perhaps over time others will pick it up and modify it.
As for claiming you're not an audiophile, well I'm pretty sure the definition of the term here in the forum is quite flexible - the fact that you want to build your own speakers I think qualifies you as an audiophile, and as you learn and develop your skills you'll be more of one. Who knows - maybe some day you'll be teaching some of US how to build!
By the way, if you do get a chance to compare $10,000 speakers to $500 ones, you probably WILL be able to tell the difference. But some day you'll be building your own version of them (the $10k ones) for a lot less.
Now get building!
It probably has sounded like everybody here was trying to discourage you from doing this, and to an extent that was true. But it was more out of concern that you would be disappointed with the results, so please take it as support.
It's perfectly OK for you to want to do this project for the reasons you've stated - to each his own. So yes go for it and let us know how it turns out, and take lots of pictures - perhaps when you're farther along some here will be able to help you with tweaking the crossover, etc. This is new and unique so perhaps over time others will pick it up and modify it.
As for claiming you're not an audiophile, well I'm pretty sure the definition of the term here in the forum is quite flexible - the fact that you want to build your own speakers I think qualifies you as an audiophile, and as you learn and develop your skills you'll be more of one. Who knows - maybe some day you'll be teaching some of US how to build!
By the way, if you do get a chance to compare $10,000 speakers to $500 ones, you probably WILL be able to tell the difference. But some day you'll be building your own version of them (the $10k ones) for a lot less.
Now get building!
mmmmkay ive decided on building my first (of 3) bang and olufsen speakers for my bedroom. they'll each have 1 tang bang titanium 3 inch driver, an ufo plate and the sound dispersion thing on top. since today i had no school i went to my dad's job and screwed around the autocad software for about 3 hours and ended with the plate and base. they look pretty cool. currently they're being sanded. i just wish i had a camera......
good for you - cool project - maybe you'll figure this one out too
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/592/wheezebi1.jpg
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/592/wheezebi1.jpg
The construction of deflector is simple - see attachment. Using top quality dome tweeters is interesting since they have best waterfall available so far (see Dynaudio Esotar). Nevertheless I will try such deflector with 50mm full range Bandor because my primary enclosure would be a bipolar infinite baffle (disc like) so that it can be easily rotated to mimic Beolab design.
Attachments
jzagaja said:
Looks like some drawings out of a patent, do you have the number? I've done something like that with the Jodans, and you will see some baffle diffraction effects in the response. Additionally, do to the wider high frequency radiation pattern, you will see some drop at the top that needs to be compensated for.
Here you are: 5615176
I'm not sure how the diffraction looks like on the frequency trasmittance data but know we can use spatial averaging to extract such component. What I want to do first is to eliminate small pressure changes on the step response.
I think we still cannot point where is a subjective differences between Manger MSW and Jordan JXR6 on the graphs.
Have you tried speaker linearisation using digital subtractive linear crossover convoluted with correction filter? This is what Beolab probably use inside but PC based solution are known to be the best on the market - see Acourate. Dr. Brugemann can be found today and tomorrow in Gelsenkirchen (http://www.hifi-music-world.de/).
I'm not sure how the diffraction looks like on the frequency trasmittance data but know we can use spatial averaging to extract such component. What I want to do first is to eliminate small pressure changes on the step response.
I think we still cannot point where is a subjective differences between Manger MSW and Jordan JXR6 on the graphs.
Have you tried speaker linearisation using digital subtractive linear crossover convoluted with correction filter? This is what Beolab probably use inside but PC based solution are known to be the best on the market - see Acourate. Dr. Brugemann can be found today and tomorrow in Gelsenkirchen (http://www.hifi-music-world.de/).
Attachments
jzagaja said:
There are two sources of diffraction, the upper edge and the lower edge. and there are two times the diffraction will take place if not carefully handled, the direct radiation and the reflected radiation.
I'm not sure I understand this statement:
"I think we still cannot point where is a subjective differences between Manger MSW and Jordan JXR6 on the graphs."
Edge diffraction is of a transient nature, although normally we review it though frequency domain, but to try and correct it electronically probably is very difficult or probably impossible. I recall Acourate is a microphone modeling software, do you have a web site for the explanation?
Edit:
I have found the Acourate site. But now that you mention "digital subtractive linear crossover convoluted with correction filter", it does seem possible to subtract the edge diffraction impulse first so that it will be added later. I wonder how accurate this can be in actual implementation.
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