Cortez,
The coloring fluid you are talking about... in the US, we call it "stain" or "wood stain".
I do NOT like/trust most types of stain:
1) Oil-Based stains seem to be the types that are common for the public and DIY. Maybe the governments OR sellers think that oil-based stains are safer or easier to use? I prefer ANILINE or LAQUER based strains. They are more difficult to: locate, purchase, and apply. BUT, I SUSPECT THAT OIL-BASED STAINS CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH PVA GLUE.
2) I often finish with 2 part polyurethanes (part A + part B and work fast). This is chemical reaction. I do not believe this reaction is helped by oil.
3) In ALL directions for painting, it says always, "Remove dust, wax, OIL, etc...
4) How can OIL-based stain be good???????????
5) I have had adhesion problems with veneer/PVA and clear poly finishes... only when using oil-based stains.
6) Professionals, furniture/guitar/speaker factories etc... do not use oil-based stains.
7) Select woods that look "right" without stain. Or, find a laquer or aniline based stain and practice to get your "look".
Just my 2 cents...
The coloring fluid you are talking about... in the US, we call it "stain" or "wood stain".
I do NOT like/trust most types of stain:
1) Oil-Based stains seem to be the types that are common for the public and DIY. Maybe the governments OR sellers think that oil-based stains are safer or easier to use? I prefer ANILINE or LAQUER based strains. They are more difficult to: locate, purchase, and apply. BUT, I SUSPECT THAT OIL-BASED STAINS CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH PVA GLUE.
2) I often finish with 2 part polyurethanes (part A + part B and work fast). This is chemical reaction. I do not believe this reaction is helped by oil.
3) In ALL directions for painting, it says always, "Remove dust, wax, OIL, etc...
4) How can OIL-based stain be good???????????
5) I have had adhesion problems with veneer/PVA and clear poly finishes... only when using oil-based stains.
6) Professionals, furniture/guitar/speaker factories etc... do not use oil-based stains.
7) Select woods that look "right" without stain. Or, find a laquer or aniline based stain and practice to get your "look".
Just my 2 cents...
Poobah
I have used danish or teak oil to finish solid wood before and I like the finish (mainly because its easy to do and brings out the woodyness of the wood nicely). is this not a compatible finish with PVA glued veneer. I'm thinking this PVA on both substrates and iron together looks like a great way of veneering but is oiling the veneer afterwards to finish it going to cause the veneer to come away from the MDF cabinet with time?
Thanks.
I have used danish or teak oil to finish solid wood before and I like the finish (mainly because its easy to do and brings out the woodyness of the wood nicely). is this not a compatible finish with PVA glued veneer. I'm thinking this PVA on both substrates and iron together looks like a great way of veneering but is oiling the veneer afterwards to finish it going to cause the veneer to come away from the MDF cabinet with time?
Thanks.
Wow, beautyful work, well done !
What would you do different now, after this project ?
You know, veneering, lacquering, sanding, etc.
And how did you get this finish so smooth and shiny ?
The veneer is joined from more sheets, right ? How did you make the joins ?
I cant see any fails on your work, its really cool, congratulations !
Could you write us please some details, and advices.chrish said:
What would you do different now, after this project ?
You know, veneering, lacquering, sanding, etc.
And how did you get this finish so smooth and shiny ?
The veneer is joined from more sheets, right ? How did you make the joins ?
I cant see any fails on your work, its really cool, congratulations !
poobah said:I believe oil finishes are ok. I just don't trust oil stains. I don't like trapping oil between PVA and a clear finish.
I don't KNOW... I only SUSPECT that it causes problems long term.
PingSY... he could shed more light on this perhaps.
That kinda makes sense to me, since with just oil finishing the solvents in the oil can still evaporate out through the wood, where as with a hard finish over the top they cannot. My only worry was the solvents in the oil may attack the PVA sooner but I guess it would be worth trying.
Chrish nice looking work.
I have finished veneering the speakers and they look great. I will post pictures in a few days hopefully. The iron veneering process is truely the diyer's method. Ive now hooked them back up and will wait a month or so before I stain them (make sure no bubbles come back).
Now im in dire need of a subwoofer........ its never suppose to end right?
Now im in dire need of a subwoofer........ its never suppose to end right?
poobah said:Cortez,
I do NOT like/trust most types of stain:
1) Oil-Based stains seem to be the types that are common for the public and DIY. Maybe the governments OR sellers think that oil-based stains are safer or easier to use? I prefer ANILINE or LAQUER based strains. They are more difficult to: locate, purchase, and apply. BUT, I SUSPECT THAT OIL-BASED STAINS CAUSE PROBLEMS WITH PVA GLUE.
2) I often finish with 2 part polyurethanes (part A + part B and work fast). This is chemical reaction. I do not believe this reaction is helped by oil.
5) I have had adhesion problems with veneer/PVA and clear poly finishes... only when using oil-based stains.
6) Professionals, furniture/guitar/speaker factories etc... do not use oil-based stains.
1) Oil based stains are good and can have the best results if done properly. The trade off with oil based products is that it takes more time.
2) The most important thing about using oil stains is to stay with oil based lacquers and other finishing techniques like tung oil and boiled linseed. DANGER... Do not mix acrylics and poly's over oil based stains.
If you pick water based stains then stick with acrylic and poly finishes.
3) I'm sure there are NOT any problems with delaminating PVA bonds if they are dry. There may be adhesion issue's if oil stain is done before making wood joints though.
4) I believe the finest custom hardwood furniture's are done with oil based products. This is the ancient way and not too compatible with time saving modern ways.
just my 2 cents
What is your definition of "best"?
What exactly is an oil based lacquer? (non-sense)
I will speculate that you are speculationg here.
If you equate "finest" with "oldest", you are correct.
Exactly! When you consider the bulk of the materials available to us are acrylics (lacquers and urethanes among others) and poly's it makes sense to avoid oil based stains.
Omitting this doesn't make it go away.
My advice is based on research, advice from manufacturers, and professional experience making woodwork for automobiles and boats, where UV, temperature, and humidity extremes separate the marginal from the durable.
I think most guys finishing speakers, having spent hundreds on veneers and hours of labor, would rather get it right the first time and minimize risk.
I am responding as a counterpoint to your belief that oil based stains are useless and can be a problem if used. If you have had a bad experience with oil stains used with other products in regards to finishes would it not it be better to find out why, rather than to avoid it all together? And then, above all, you advise others to avoid them as well? Most of my experience is based in regards to oil painting and mixed media in art paintings. My advise is based on extrapolating my knowledge of the creation of art, the conservation of, and the restoration of. As an artist my media of choice is oil paint. My background and training as a engineer led me to investigate the materials used in paint and their applications in art to some depth. When I said oil based finishes could be "best" I meant as resulting in a long lasting, beautiful finish (in the right hands of course), that can lead to such adjectives such as glowing, brilliant, translucent. I also use the term varnish and lacquer in the basis as the final protective layer in an oil painting or in this case the stained veneer of a wooden speaker.
1) PVA's are used a modern glue and sizing for paintings of all media and is recommended for use by most art conservationists.
This is my basis for my belief that PVA is not a problem with oil based stains, or oil paints, acrylic paints, or just about anything else.
2) The number one rule of mixed media and oil painting is not mix acrylics on top of oil based paints. Oils take a long time to dry or cure and if a layer is put on top that does not have similar properties, it can result in many problems like hazing or cracking as you have seem to encountered. The number two rule in oil painting is, as a paint film is added or layered, the oil content on each subsequent layer must be increased to counter cracking problems.
1) PVA's are used a modern glue and sizing for paintings of all media and is recommended for use by most art conservationists.
This is my basis for my belief that PVA is not a problem with oil based stains, or oil paints, acrylic paints, or just about anything else.
2) The number one rule of mixed media and oil painting is not mix acrylics on top of oil based paints. Oils take a long time to dry or cure and if a layer is put on top that does not have similar properties, it can result in many problems like hazing or cracking as you have seem to encountered. The number two rule in oil painting is, as a paint film is added or layered, the oil content on each subsequent layer must be increased to counter cracking problems.
My beef with oil stain is two fold. First and most important, it comprimises the adhesion of subsequent coatings. Depending on the material used and the thickness of the build, you can literally peel the clear coat off in sheets.
This problem is most acute with thick films where glass finishes are required. I would guess that when the film grows in thickness, its tensile strength goes beyond that of the peel strength. For guys that are going to do a high-build finish, adhesion is paramount to success.
The problems with adhesion were confirmed by the techs at Sadolin Paints... their opinion? Oil based stains = consumer friendly = forgiving = poor superstrate adhesion = leaching into the superstrate = polluting superstrate cure chemistry = bad ju ju.
Second, I SUSPECT (as stated before) that oil based stains, or at least the ones I used, comprimise the adhesion of PVA. I don't KNOW this... but after having to strip burl veneer down to the substrate for a total redo (more than once), I opted to forgo the risk and use stains that dried faster... aninlines or lacquers. Remember, the veneers might wind up as thin as 5 or 10 mils by the time they are sanded smooth. The problem went away... proof?... HELL no... suspicion... you betcha.
My point in giving advice to anyone is to err on the side of success. Oil based stains present a risk to high build finishes, and they are easily avoided by finding and using professional products.
This problem is most acute with thick films where glass finishes are required. I would guess that when the film grows in thickness, its tensile strength goes beyond that of the peel strength. For guys that are going to do a high-build finish, adhesion is paramount to success.
The problems with adhesion were confirmed by the techs at Sadolin Paints... their opinion? Oil based stains = consumer friendly = forgiving = poor superstrate adhesion = leaching into the superstrate = polluting superstrate cure chemistry = bad ju ju.
Second, I SUSPECT (as stated before) that oil based stains, or at least the ones I used, comprimise the adhesion of PVA. I don't KNOW this... but after having to strip burl veneer down to the substrate for a total redo (more than once), I opted to forgo the risk and use stains that dried faster... aninlines or lacquers. Remember, the veneers might wind up as thin as 5 or 10 mils by the time they are sanded smooth. The problem went away... proof?... HELL no... suspicion... you betcha.
My point in giving advice to anyone is to err on the side of success. Oil based stains present a risk to high build finishes, and they are easily avoided by finding and using professional products.
I suspect the problems wth PVA and using oil stains maybe due to using the thin veneers. The PVA could saturate the veneer making its presence known at the money side. The problem exists for both types of stains but the water based ones would tend to dilute the effect. I believe using a thicker veneer looks better to begin with. (for example look at wood flooring products). I'm sure your advice is sound for most, esp for beginner veneering. I just think it would be a shame that DIY people would shy away from exploring other techniques. I'm sure thick veneers with oil based finishes done with care would blow away most modern finishes.
In the case of burl wood on compound curves, sanding it so thin is often unavoidable. And what you don't correct in the wood you must correct in finish which aggravates (increases) the build.
And yes... there is much to be said for plain old linseed oil... look for the thread, "a lost method of finishing".
One key to the beauty of old finishes was the inherent yellow present in the coating. This adds much to the "look" and the illusion of depth. Sadolin provides clear urethane finishes that are deliberately tinted yellow with UV blockers... really slick. Gives you the look, and protects the wood from UV fading all in one. Fast too, with 2 part urethane you can get a glass build in one day.
Keep in mind, this is a sore spot with me. I spent about 100 hours laying zebrano veneer on a dashboard for a 53 Benz... intense compund curves all over. Stained it (oil), hand painted all the seams with colored laquers to hide the splices, clear coated it. Pulled it off the shelf 6 months later and the veneer had delaminated. Arrggghhhh.
During the process of scraping off all that work, I discovered the clear finish had next to no adhesion. At this point, I quit reading the sparse BS on the backs of cans and started calling the chemists.
And yes... there is much to be said for plain old linseed oil... look for the thread, "a lost method of finishing".
One key to the beauty of old finishes was the inherent yellow present in the coating. This adds much to the "look" and the illusion of depth. Sadolin provides clear urethane finishes that are deliberately tinted yellow with UV blockers... really slick. Gives you the look, and protects the wood from UV fading all in one. Fast too, with 2 part urethane you can get a glass build in one day.
Keep in mind, this is a sore spot with me. I spent about 100 hours laying zebrano veneer on a dashboard for a 53 Benz... intense compund curves all over. Stained it (oil), hand painted all the seams with colored laquers to hide the splices, clear coated it. Pulled it off the shelf 6 months later and the veneer had delaminated. Arrggghhhh.
During the process of scraping off all that work, I discovered the clear finish had next to no adhesion. At this point, I quit reading the sparse BS on the backs of cans and started calling the chemists.
Thanks for mentioning the great "lost method of finishing" thread that was my first thread I paticipated in.
I agree with the yellow tint giving to good effect. I usually tint my finish varnishes which make blues/grey and greens pop.
I wonder if other adhesives (heat activated) would be better for thin veneering, allowing oil finishing methods.
I agree with the yellow tint giving to good effect. I usually tint my finish varnishes which make blues/grey and greens pop.
I wonder if other adhesives (heat activated) would be better for thin veneering, allowing oil finishing methods.
Come on Mr. Mouse, you like Rolls Royce / Mercedes wood dontcha? Hey, I'm all for a good oil finish... even Minwax is killer. Definitely the ARMSTRONG method though... and limited protection/durability.
Infinia,
I ultimately experimented with using B stage epoxy films for veneer work. It was killer... water from the steam didn't faze it... nothing will screw with it later... it did take longer to set though. The one problem was that it could ooze through pinholes so you had to be carefull not to smear it 'round the money side of the veneer.
I wouldn't recommend it here 'cause it's hard to find in small quantity... and I'm SURE it causes cancer in California & Europe. PVA works very good... I would just not risk the.... blah blah
Infinia,
I ultimately experimented with using B stage epoxy films for veneer work. It was killer... water from the steam didn't faze it... nothing will screw with it later... it did take longer to set though. The one problem was that it could ooze through pinholes so you had to be carefull not to smear it 'round the money side of the veneer.
I wouldn't recommend it here 'cause it's hard to find in small quantity... and I'm SURE it causes cancer in California & Europe. PVA works very good... I would just not risk the.... blah blah
This is my first time build
Veneer is plain jane cherry adhesive is "glue film"
Finish is 5 coats of Tung Oil diluted 50/50 white spirit, then wax plenty of it lots of elbow work. I found best waxes are without any petroleum base, brand I used is called Antiquax.
Veneer is plain jane cherry adhesive is "glue film"
Finish is 5 coats of Tung Oil diluted 50/50 white spirit, then wax plenty of it lots of elbow work. I found best waxes are without any petroleum base, brand I used is called Antiquax.
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Poobah
I got the "glue film" from here http://www.valeveneers.co.uk/ad.html
I thought this product was universal, it looks like thin dried PVA glue in a sheet.You use the same method with an hot iron these are my very first speakers I actually veneered I can't believe how easy it went
I got the "glue film" from here http://www.valeveneers.co.uk/ad.html
I thought this product was universal, it looks like thin dried PVA glue in a sheet.You use the same method with an hot iron these are my very first speakers I actually veneered I can't believe how easy it went
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