As you're in the UK, I'd suggest a Beyma CP380M and a small flare of your choice depending on dispersion requirements etc. This driver is beautiful sounding and very sweet, with none of the hardness that metal dome drivers have. Best HF compression driver I've ever used. Most bullet style drivers aren't going to be really comfortable down to 3k5, and I'm guessing, not sound really good either.
Stupidly I lent my 380's to someone who now refuses to return them (because he likes them so much), so when you buy yours, get another for me and post it on down to Oz so I can use it in my bass rig.
Stupidly I lent my 380's to someone who now refuses to return them (because he likes them so much), so when you buy yours, get another for me and post it on down to Oz so I can use it in my bass rig.
I pretty much agree with Brett here, "bullet" style tweeters aren't exactly happy when crossed too low.
But if you want to give it a try, then give it a try but chances are you're gonna pop a membrane or two at high power levels.
I have no experience with the Selenium drivers but they might be a good choice. Others include JBL2402 (very spendy, but can be found second-hand pretty cheap) or the Beyma CP22 (quite cheap brand new). Both are excellent IMO. Both have a "long-throw" narrow dispersion pattern that is as beamy as a pencil in the top octave but I reckon that's what you want.
You are going to need a very steep crossover slope to not blow the tweeter, 2nd order could do at low power levels but preferably 3rd or 4th order. And you will need an L-pad or similar to attenuate the tweeter to match the sensitivity of the 8''. I assume you are crossing the 8'':s active or?
Designing such a crossover pretty much requires a spectrum analyzer with tracking generator for reaching adequate results IMO.
Cheers
/Magnus
But if you want to give it a try, then give it a try but chances are you're gonna pop a membrane or two at high power levels.
I have no experience with the Selenium drivers but they might be a good choice. Others include JBL2402 (very spendy, but can be found second-hand pretty cheap) or the Beyma CP22 (quite cheap brand new). Both are excellent IMO. Both have a "long-throw" narrow dispersion pattern that is as beamy as a pencil in the top octave but I reckon that's what you want.
You are going to need a very steep crossover slope to not blow the tweeter, 2nd order could do at low power levels but preferably 3rd or 4th order. And you will need an L-pad or similar to attenuate the tweeter to match the sensitivity of the 8''. I assume you are crossing the 8'':s active or?
Designing such a crossover pretty much requires a spectrum analyzer with tracking generator for reaching adequate results IMO.
Cheers
/Magnus
Then with every bullet I've ever seen, you'll need to filter the hell out of it at the bottom (ie active xover) as the distortion increases greatly and this region coincides with the area of greatest sensitivity in hearing, so you need to be careful what you do. Otherwise, all you'll succeed in doing is give the punters earwire, and they won't want to stay. You might also do damage to the driver if any LF gets into it and the FMD will make it sound bad too and lessen intelligibility.Pbassred said:
I looked at some of the manufacturer sites and my choice if I had to, would be the Beyma CP22, 24dB/oct at 3k5. I've not used it, but it looks OK.
I was at a gig tonight, as a punter, and I "fixed" the sound by taking a low Q scoop out of it centred around 2-3k (hard to tell exactly with an uncalibrated dial) with several dB of attenuation as the POS system was screaming at both ends from the 12" driving too high into breakup and the tweet working too low. People were actually moving away from the system because it sounded awful; most only put up with it as the artists were so good.
But I have to ask, are you actually designing the system to sound good, or just looking to chuck drivers in a box and make a loud noise?
PS. Just saw Magnus response as I was finishing typing. My concern with suggesting the CP22 was it's pattern control, and Magnus' experiemce confirms my concerns. One of the tips to putting together a GOOD sounding system is to try to match the dispersions for the drivers around the xover frequency. And as I mentioned before the 3k region is very sensitive.
Brett, I have only listened to the Beyma CP380/M once but it sure sounded sweet. Have you any experience with the CP385/Nd? I am considering it as an upgrade for my home system, and since maximum driver diameter is an issue I can not go for the 380.
And yes, there is nothing better than a quality pro sound system with clean, clear and crisp output and high SPL. But there is nothing worse (oh well, actually there is but anyway... ) than an ear-piercing POS system cranked up all the way into 110% distortion.
/M
And yes, there is nothing better than a quality pro sound system with clean, clear and crisp output and high SPL. But there is nothing worse (oh well, actually there is but anyway...
) than an ear-piercing POS system cranked up all the way into 110% distortion./M
Swedish Chef said:
Sorry, no experience. Beyma drivers are quite rare down here, so I've never seen them. My gut hunch is they will be similarly excellent.
I'm going to import some Beyma's over the next few months for a big(ish) bass guitar rig as nothing I can find locally seems to perform the way I want.
I hate getting earwire from sound systems. It ruins the performance and makes me want to leave. I would have tonight, except a friend was performing and I wanted to hear the set.And yes, there is nothing better than a quality pro sound system with clean, clear and crisp output and high SPL. But there is nothing worse (oh well, actually there is but anyway...
/M
If you get the 385's please let us know how they perform.
The Fostex FT66H is one of the only small horns (it's a ring radiator, not a bullet) wich can go as low as 3.5 a 4 kHz with proper filtering (24db/oct) Don't expect much from the power rating in that area but for a very small PA system it might be just right. I see you are planning to use an 8"driver as midrange wich will also be limited in max SPL so I think the Fostex will hold up.
Stay away from the typical bullet tweeters because they simply all sound very awfull at 3.5 kHz, these are designed as supertweeters NOT as tweeters. In fact every horn will sound awfull when used below the cutt-off frequency of the horn itself, distortion figures of several tens % are very common there.
Stay away from the typical bullet tweeters because they simply all sound very awfull at 3.5 kHz, these are designed as supertweeters NOT as tweeters. In fact every horn will sound awfull when used below the cutt-off frequency of the horn itself, distortion figures of several tens % are very common there.
Pbassred said:
This is the only bullet I'm familiar with that meets your needs, though there may be similar units by others: http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/294-400.pdf
All the cheaper ones I browsed at Parts Express require at least two to get the power handling down low, so considering the JBL's cost I'd go this route and inductor one off at whatever point it flattens the response. This should allow for a simple 2nd order XO if the horn's Fc is <2.5kHz. The only other consideration then is measuring the 8"er's polar response at 3.5kHz and finding a bullet that comes closest to matching it.
GM
There seems to be a conflict in my understanding here. I have read that Sound reinforcement systems are comonly split at 3-500Hz and 3.5kHz.
I already have some "full range" cabs but I was planning to (active) crossover well below its own "high" point. Thus making its own nasty piezo, a passenger. [The cab are usefull to keep on their own since I can use them for smaller events.]
That leaves the mid and top range. I was going to use an Eninance Beta 8" or the CX which they claim goes right up to 20KHz. That leaves the top, for which I intended a passive crossover, and the question; "how many big boxes do they NEED in a pub? The market that we are up against is the Yamaha style 12+piezo-in-a-square-box.
I already have some "full range" cabs but I was planning to (active) crossover well below its own "high" point. Thus making its own nasty piezo, a passenger. [The cab are usefull to keep on their own since I can use them for smaller events.]
That leaves the mid and top range. I was going to use an Eninance Beta 8" or the CX which they claim goes right up to 20KHz. That leaves the top, for which I intended a passive crossover, and the question; "how many big boxes do they NEED in a pub? The market that we are up against is the Yamaha style 12+piezo-in-a-square-box.
Pbassred,
since you are in the UK you might have a look at the bullet tweeters from Fane (http://www.faneacoustics.com). I have no personal experience with them (although I use the Studio 12B:s in my home system and they are really good IMO) but have heard great comments on them. Take a look at http://www.volvotreter.de for an all horn-loaded home system that uses the ST5022.
On the cheap side you also have a few from P. Audio (http://www.paudio-europe.com). No experience with them although I use one of their 1'' titanium compression drivers (which isn't really bad, but not really good either). And then you have the ATP series from Eminence (http://www.eminence.com) with a phenolic diaphragm.
/Magnus
since you are in the UK you might have a look at the bullet tweeters from Fane (http://www.faneacoustics.com). I have no personal experience with them (although I use the Studio 12B:s in my home system and they are really good IMO) but have heard great comments on them. Take a look at http://www.volvotreter.de for an all horn-loaded home system that uses the ST5022.
On the cheap side you also have a few from P. Audio (http://www.paudio-europe.com). No experience with them although I use one of their 1'' titanium compression drivers (which isn't really bad, but not really good either). And then you have the ATP series from Eminence (http://www.eminence.com) with a phenolic diaphragm.
/Magnus
Pbassred said:
300-500Hz is common, but the mids/HF XO point in three and four ways is dependent on the app. With your 'clarification', I'm now thoroughly confused as to what you're trying to do. WRT your latest Q, it depends on the size of the pub, max number of patrons allowed, desired peak SPL and/or intelligibility. Anyway, the Q implies you're trying to design something to sell/install. If so, this thread belongs on a prosound forum such as: http://www.live-audio.com/board.shtml
GM
The B&C DE25 even sounds very good without any horn mounted on them. Tried that once and thought it wouldn't work but to my suprise it's works wonderfully well, they also have an incredible sound dispersion that way. Don't know what it does at higher levels though, only tried it at home.
How many big speakers you need in a pub you ask. Well, the first thing you have to get in mind is that everything wich seem to go earstaking loud at home seems like wispering volume in a crowded pub. People make a lot of noise and they are damping the sound a lot at the same time. Good PA sound isn't all about how loud it can go, it's more about sound quality at high levels. Cheap PA systems wich are overdriven give the PA world a bad name for quality
How many big speakers you need in a pub you ask. Well, the first thing you have to get in mind is that everything wich seem to go earstaking loud at home seems like wispering volume in a crowded pub. People make a lot of noise and they are damping the sound a lot at the same time. Good PA sound isn't all about how loud it can go, it's more about sound quality at high levels. Cheap PA systems wich are overdriven give the PA world a bad name for quality
Er... No it doesn't. I'm doing this.....
Zone Six
The PA forums would laugh at the size of my rig. As I have said elsewere on this forum, vocal reinforcement STARTS at 500W and no pro would bother with less than 3KW - and those are the weekend players! The advice they give boils down to "bin those speakers and buy some ready-made expencive ones". That doesn't wash in HiFi. Why should small PA be any different?
I'm just trying to put together some nice sounding pieces that are small enough to go in the car. It can't be HiFi. I don't have control of the room for a start. However I can use a an ounce of science in putting it together, rather than blindly assuming that JBL/Yamaha/Mackie "know what they're doing".
The original question wasn't which tweeter, but how to spec it. .....and why? Of the 300W (pushing 400) available each side, up to 150W is available for mid and high. What SHOULD the Xover be? That should lead into power allocation. There is probably an easy rule.
What makes a tweeter sound "nice"?
Now, with that clarification I can give you straight answers.
1. Q: What SHOULD the Xover be?
You stated that the crossover frequency should be 3.5 kHz.
A: The Xover should be 3.5 kHz
2. Q: What specs should I look for?
A: Look for these characteristics:
i, Perfectly flat frequency response between 3.5 kHz and 20 kHz.
ii, Power handling that matches the system input power, filter characteristics chosen and crossover frequency.
iii, Resonance frequency and cut-off frequency well below 3.5 kHz.
iv, No measurable distortion over the entire audio band. If you choose an ideal (brick-wall) high-pass filter this requirement could be relaxed to just 3.5 - 20 kHz. But since ideal passive filters have infinite impulse response you would have to wait forever to accomplish this with a passive filter.
v, Dispersion pattern that is to your likening and constant through the frequency range of operation.
I am sorry for having wasted your time with recommendations for bullet tweeters. None of the drivers I suggested are up to these specifications.
/M
Swedish Chef said:
I haven't heard or used the CP385/nd - However, I looked for a pair at a decent price for probably a year -
The operations manager at DDS horns here, who make a number of pro horns told me it was the best of the newer "pancake" style drivers he had heard and said that it was what he was using on his system at home.
I finally picked up a pair of Radians - for the poly diaphragms and the wide dispersion characteristics of the "pancake" style driver.
The Beyma retail price is pretty high here, and there are so few sold in the US that it's next to impossible to find them at a discount.
while I haven't heard it, I have done my homework on the 1" drivers and I would definitely say go for it.
Besides, if you don't like them, and you get a good deal on them you can sell them to me or Brett at only a slight loss _really big grin_
Regards
Ken L
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