I have recently picked up a pair of each cheap from Maplin and am looking for a reasonably cost effective way of putting them together.
34 litres is probably the maximum volume I'd consider and I'd like opinions on how small the enclosure could get before it would not be worth building.
Other threads I have read seem not to have panned out with a crossover for either unit.
The crossover suggested for the KLS12 crossover seems it might be expensive and I'd like to minimise parts count.
AP210ZO response graph image1
TW034XO response graph image2
One last point is the amp I have requires an 8 ohm speaker (its a World Audio Design Kit34)
Many thanks.
34 litres is probably the maximum volume I'd consider and I'd like opinions on how small the enclosure could get before it would not be worth building.
Other threads I have read seem not to have panned out with a crossover for either unit.
The crossover suggested for the KLS12 crossover seems it might be expensive and I'd like to minimise parts count.
AP210ZO response graph image1
TW034XO response graph image2
One last point is the amp I have requires an 8 ohm speaker (its a World Audio Design Kit34)
Many thanks.
Konnichiwa,
I would suggest to try a simple series crossover, similar to that posted by LC Audio:
This will need some tweaking, especially the tweeter level where I think you will be needing a much more substantial L-Pad. Try a 6R8 resistor in series with the Tweeter and a 22R Resistor in parallel t weeter and resistor to keep the impedance level on track.
With the virtue of the 34mm Drivers lower resonance and better power handling you can move the crossover down in frequency a little more, simply by multiplying all capacitor values and the inductor by 1.5.
If we look for standard values, an 0.68mH inductor is nearest preferred value. If we now apply the same factor to the capaictors we need 21.7uF (use 22uF) instead of 15uF and 9.83uF (use 10uF) instead of 6.8uF. This will pushnthe X-Over point dwn to around 1.8KHz.
I would suggest to consider firing the resultant speaker either directly forward (straight) or severely toed in, so that the listener is somewhat off axis, which helps smooth the sound arriving at the listener, on axis both drivers have notable problems in the response plots.
I do think you should also consider adding a supertweeter (one of the 10mm Audax Thingies with a simple small value capacitor in series). Try 1uF in series with the tweeter. Maplin used to have these, but I cannot find them now. You need a model around 87-89db/2.83V/1m, the 10mm or 14mm versions.
I hope this helps, as the X-Over is experimental first use cheap parts and build it up and measure, to see how things work out.
As for the Box, I stronly suggest you try the largest sealed box you can get away with. Fill losely with a suitable stuffing material. Consider using Chipboard with a thin Plywood overlay for the "wrap-around", Baffle plywood and rearwall Plywood or MDF.
Size the Box according to the classic golden ratio 1.618 (H) X 1 (W) X 0.618 (D) inside measured and place the drivers as assymetrically as feasible. With an 8" Driver I would go for at least a 12" wide baffle, but if you take my advise you make that more like 18". From that you get the other measures easily and quickly.
An enclosure in size and shape like the AN-E is not a bad idea, if much larger than what you had in mind. Leave the box sealed or use a port to tune the Speaker VERY LOW (around 25Hz port tuning or so), thge result may be unorthodox and flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but trust me it works quite well for AN, so why not for you?
Sayonara
cyteen said:
I would suggest to try a simple series crossover, similar to that posted by LC Audio:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This will need some tweaking, especially the tweeter level where I think you will be needing a much more substantial L-Pad. Try a 6R8 resistor in series with the Tweeter and a 22R Resistor in parallel t weeter and resistor to keep the impedance level on track.
With the virtue of the 34mm Drivers lower resonance and better power handling you can move the crossover down in frequency a little more, simply by multiplying all capacitor values and the inductor by 1.5.
If we look for standard values, an 0.68mH inductor is nearest preferred value. If we now apply the same factor to the capaictors we need 21.7uF (use 22uF) instead of 15uF and 9.83uF (use 10uF) instead of 6.8uF. This will pushnthe X-Over point dwn to around 1.8KHz.
I would suggest to consider firing the resultant speaker either directly forward (straight) or severely toed in, so that the listener is somewhat off axis, which helps smooth the sound arriving at the listener, on axis both drivers have notable problems in the response plots.
I do think you should also consider adding a supertweeter (one of the 10mm Audax Thingies with a simple small value capacitor in series). Try 1uF in series with the tweeter. Maplin used to have these, but I cannot find them now. You need a model around 87-89db/2.83V/1m, the 10mm or 14mm versions.
I hope this helps, as the X-Over is experimental first use cheap parts and build it up and measure, to see how things work out.
As for the Box, I stronly suggest you try the largest sealed box you can get away with. Fill losely with a suitable stuffing material. Consider using Chipboard with a thin Plywood overlay for the "wrap-around", Baffle plywood and rearwall Plywood or MDF.
Size the Box according to the classic golden ratio 1.618 (H) X 1 (W) X 0.618 (D) inside measured and place the drivers as assymetrically as feasible. With an 8" Driver I would go for at least a 12" wide baffle, but if you take my advise you make that more like 18". From that you get the other measures easily and quickly.
An enclosure in size and shape like the AN-E is not a bad idea, if much larger than what you had in mind. Leave the box sealed or use a port to tune the Speaker VERY LOW (around 25Hz port tuning or so), thge result may be unorthodox and flies in the face of conventional wisdom, but trust me it works quite well for AN, so why not for you?
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Only very briefly. Narrow baffles make the sound comparably thin EVEN IF you apply baffle loss correction due to poor wavelaunch and altering directivity throughout the format range. In addition, any diffraction problems by narrow baffles fall outside the HAAS window and are comparably much higher in level, meaning imaging is very much damaged and made un-natural.
A wide baffle moves the diffraction problems more to within the HAAS window (after mor ethan 1mS) and due to a larger distance to the edge the level of diffracted sound is lower. A wide baffle will support "wavelaunch" (remember, waves are spherical) to a much lower frequency and give better support to lower formants.
Acoustically speaking the modern narrow frotn tall tower speakers are about as bad as it gets, unless you build a linesource.
Sayonara
tiroth said:
Only very briefly. Narrow baffles make the sound comparably thin EVEN IF you apply baffle loss correction due to poor wavelaunch and altering directivity throughout the format range. In addition, any diffraction problems by narrow baffles fall outside the HAAS window and are comparably much higher in level, meaning imaging is very much damaged and made un-natural.
A wide baffle moves the diffraction problems more to within the HAAS window (after mor ethan 1mS) and due to a larger distance to the edge the level of diffracted sound is lower. A wide baffle will support "wavelaunch" (remember, waves are spherical) to a much lower frequency and give better support to lower formants.
Acoustically speaking the modern narrow frotn tall tower speakers are about as bad as it gets, unless you build a linesource.
Sayonara
Thanks for the detailed response KYW. I'll follow your advice and start with the large enclosure first to see what these drivers can do unhindered. Living room space may demand something smaller long term tho.
As for the audax super tweeter, are we talking about the gold piezo which was recently discontinued. In which case can someone recommend a source or an alternative.
As for the audax super tweeter, are we talking about the gold piezo which was recently discontinued. In which case can someone recommend a source or an alternative.
Cyteen,
i am so glad you created this thread, i have the drivers you mentioned, i purchased them from the Mapion super sale and have been woundering what to do with them.
Thanks for the advice by the other thread contributors, in particular i think i may have discovered why all my last speakers have sounde thin, i like the look of narrow slim speakers......... not good then
Time for some fat boys 18" that will please the wife haa haa
M
i am so glad you created this thread, i have the drivers you mentioned, i purchased them from the Mapion super sale and have been woundering what to do with them.
Thanks for the advice by the other thread contributors, in particular i think i may have discovered why all my last speakers have sounde thin, i like the look of narrow slim speakers......... not good then
Time for some fat boys 18" that will please the wife haa haaM
Konnichiwa,
Have a look at the AN-E. It's meant to be close to rear walls and sits on low stands. It can be surprisingly unobtrusive if care is taken....
Hell no. That thing cost an arm, a leg and a kidney and was not THAT great (Heard in Heybroke Speakers) when used as conventional tweeter.
I'm talking about the TW10... or TW14..... Series.
Have a look. These are nasty cheap things, but reach quite high and they are only needed for the top bit of air. The predeccesor to the TW34 was in many BBC Monitors, without Super tweeter they always lacked "air", nothing to worrk a BBC Engineer mixing for FM radio, 15KHz upper bandwidth cutoff but noticable in "Real-Fi".
Sayonara
cyteen said:
Have a look at the AN-E. It's meant to be close to rear walls and sits on low stands. It can be surprisingly unobtrusive if care is taken....
cyteen said:
Hell no. That thing cost an arm, a leg and a kidney and was not THAT great (Heard in Heybroke Speakers) when used as conventional tweeter.
I'm talking about the TW10... or TW14..... Series.
Have a look. These are nasty cheap things, but reach quite high and they are only needed for the top bit of air. The predeccesor to the TW34 was in many BBC Monitors, without Super tweeter they always lacked "air", nothing to worrk a BBC Engineer mixing for FM radio, 15KHz upper bandwidth cutoff but noticable in "Real-Fi".
Sayonara
I did find what look like cheap nasty things (TW 010 F1) for 7GBP at falcon acoustics, no luck finding a TW14.
Are these units (rated 25W) any better than the cts/motorola piezos (which promise 3k-30k) given that they will be brought in so high. These at least have a high power rating that more closely matches the the other drivers. A wide horn might help with the off axis although the sensitive might be a little high.
Just as an aside, would these narrow, non-wave launching speaker designs, benefit from glass wings in the same style as is seen with some of the open baffle designs. Would that be a way of keeping the look but providing the required baffle size?
Are these units (rated 25W) any better than the cts/motorola piezos (which promise 3k-30k) given that they will be brought in so high. These at least have a high power rating that more closely matches the the other drivers. A wide horn might help with the off axis although the sensitive might be a little high.
Just as an aside, would these narrow, non-wave launching speaker designs, benefit from glass wings in the same style as is seen with some of the open baffle designs. Would that be a way of keeping the look but providing the required baffle size?
Konnichiwa,
They may have discontinued the TW14 series too. There has been a death of drive units in the Audax Lines that recalls the Somme.
You can use both, but the Motorolas with sufficient voltage sensitivity tend to be hornloaded which moves their acoustic centre far behind the main tweeter (in terms of the wavelength we are dealing with). Using the smallest TW10 with enough sensitivity (87db) and if neccesarily cropping the TW34 faceplate is likely to give better results.
Yes.
You need to answer that question....
Sayonara
cyteen said:
They may have discontinued the TW14 series too. There has been a death of drive units in the Audax Lines that recalls the Somme.
cyteen said:
You can use both, but the Motorolas with sufficient voltage sensitivity tend to be hornloaded which moves their acoustic centre far behind the main tweeter (in terms of the wavelength we are dealing with). Using the smallest TW10 with enough sensitivity (87db) and if neccesarily cropping the TW34 faceplate is likely to give better results.
cyteen said:
Yes.
cyteen said:
You need to answer that question....
Sayonara
As for cabinet construction does the use of MDF for the wrap and plywood for the front and back produce a better cabinet than plywood all round? Then it'll be time to start buying and cutting the wood.
BTW I remember a while back a thread regarding the Pioneer 565a and was wondering if you still had a copy of the service manual you could email me?
BTW I remember a while back a thread regarding the Pioneer 565a and was wondering if you still had a copy of the service manual you could email me?
Konnichiwa,
Audio Note Model E speaker....
http://www.audionote.co.uk/speakers/spkr.htm
http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475
Sayonara
D1GGY said:
Audio Note Model E speaker....
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
http://www.audionote.co.uk/speakers/spkr.htm
http://www.stereotimes.com/speak071701.shtm
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_read.asp?ID=475
Sayonara
Konnichiwa,
Plywood all around can be just fine. Chipboard is lossier than plywood, hence a sandwich with a lighter grade chipboard and a thin (6mm) outer hardwood plywood layer may sound better. I would mostly avoid MDF in making speakers.
I don't have it in e-mail for at hand, sorry.
Sayonara
cyteen said:
Plywood all around can be just fine. Chipboard is lossier than plywood, hence a sandwich with a lighter grade chipboard and a thin (6mm) outer hardwood plywood layer may sound better. I would mostly avoid MDF in making speakers.
cyteen said:
I don't have it in e-mail for at hand, sorry.
Sayonara
Have used same drivers with series cross and wide baffle (13'') years ago. Also not mdf but baltic birch plywood.
Well, awesome. Lends itself to valve drive. I would suggest solid core copper cable and very low resistance upper coil. Also a couple of RW034XO spare diaphragms if you can find to keep.
Since you may overdrive the tws with some solid state at a point and regretfully Audax does not plan to be around for hobbyists.
Well, awesome. Lends itself to valve drive. I would suggest solid core copper cable and very low resistance upper coil. Also a couple of RW034XO spare diaphragms if you can find to keep.
Since you may overdrive the tws with some solid state at a point and regretfully Audax does not plan to be around for hobbyists.
Hi All,
i too have some AP210Z0's and TW034X0's ! where i live the TW034X0 is Euro 74, (the Scan 2905/9300 is Euro 110). Listening to them both, i'd say that price differental is about right, so congrat's on a bargan everyone.
One thing; most of the equivalent tweeters (like the one in the AN - E) have a smaller recessed dome. The TW034X0 has a huge surface mounted dome, time alignment is worse than normal, i've been thinking of how to make my cabinet counteract some of this physical offset.
BTW, i will be driving mine active - will be using the MOX active X-over for the setup/experimentation process.
look forward to hearing how you're all getting on.
i too have some AP210Z0's and TW034X0's ! where i live the TW034X0 is Euro 74, (the Scan 2905/9300 is Euro 110). Listening to them both, i'd say that price differental is about right, so congrat's on a bargan everyone.
One thing; most of the equivalent tweeters (like the one in the AN - E) have a smaller recessed dome. The TW034X0 has a huge surface mounted dome, time alignment is worse than normal, i've been thinking of how to make my cabinet counteract some of this physical offset.
BTW, i will be driving mine active - will be using the MOX active X-over for the setup/experimentation process.
look forward to hearing how you're all getting on.
As part of the Maplin closeout on Audax I also have some AP210Z0, TW034XO and TW025A0.
I'm intrigued by this wide-baffle idea. Does this negate the need for baffle-step correction?
I was going to try 2 AP210Z0 per side in OB copying the Linkwitz Phoenix, but the wide-baffle box may also get tried. I will be going active as well.
I'm intrigued by this wide-baffle idea. Does this negate the need for baffle-step correction?
I was going to try 2 AP210Z0 per side in OB copying the Linkwitz Phoenix, but the wide-baffle box may also get tried. I will be going active as well.
My reading on the topic of construction material has pointed to either all marine plywood or the industrial grade large particle chip board. A friend has an Audionote AN/K which apears to be made from this and its is much harder than I thought chip board could be. It also sounded quite good.
The speaker projects of note seem to line the mdf with some real wood, and many say that mdf is just too dead.
I'm definitely going all plywood, baltic birch, as Salas mentioned, on this one.
Some volume figures from winISD:
Results and screen grab
The speaker projects of note seem to line the mdf with some real wood, and many say that mdf is just too dead.
I'm definitely going all plywood, baltic birch, as Salas mentioned, on this one.
Some volume figures from winISD:
Results and screen grab
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