http://www.madisound.com/thor.html
or
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
They are both around the same price.
or
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
They are both around the same price.
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Joined 2003
I am still confused about dipoles in general. Apparently there is less room interaction but I can't get my head around it.
Surely a speaker that fires energy backwards as well as forwards is going to need a room with better acoustics than a monopole speaker.
At the very least the speaker must sit far out from the front wall and and this front wall be heavily draped or have curtains.
Surely a speaker that fires energy backwards as well as forwards is going to need a room with better acoustics than a monopole speaker.
At the very least the speaker must sit far out from the front wall and and this front wall be heavily draped or have curtains.
tktran said:
You're incorrectly assuming that monopole radiation is forwards. As wave lengths increase beyond baffle width a monopole becomes omnidirectional and monopole/dipole rear output is equal in magnitude. With domestically acceptable baffle widths matching wave lengths several octaves into the midrange, the required front-wall separation for hi-fi applications (meybe 4 feet, reflected path 2X direct path) isn't any different for monopoles and dipoles.
With the same separation to the front wall the dipole works better because its cosine alpha radiation pattern (-1.2dB 30 degrees off-axis, -3dB 45 degrees off axis, -6dB @ 60 degrees, no output at 90 degrees) reduces the magnitude of sidewall and ceiling reflections. Image shift from a single speaker towards the sidewall is significantly less than with a monopole (like well inside the tweeter flange iinstead of outside the speaker).
Total power is also 4.8dB lower for a given on-axis SPL with a dipole instead of a monopole, so the reverberant field is weaker.
You don't want the front-wall draped with curtains because they're going to affect high frequencies more and therefore change the total power response.
I vote for the Orion!
I have built the Phoenix system myself and I can honestly say that they are the best pair of speakers I've ever heard. The magic with much less room interactions actually works, maybe you have to hear it before believing it?
I'm sure the Orions are more expensive to build though, but it is worth the extra money!
I have built the Phoenix system myself and I can honestly say that they are the best pair of speakers I've ever heard. The magic with much less room interactions actually works, maybe you have to hear it before believing it?
I'm sure the Orions are more expensive to build though, but it is worth the extra money!
I'd also vote for the Orions, although the minimum is six channels of amplification not eight. Depending on your degree of audiophilia nervosa the amps don't have to be expensive. I use the $200 Panasonic XR25 digital receiver with mine and have no complaints at all.
You may also want to check the Arvo Part project at the DIY section of www.htguide.com for a passive dipole solution.
Cheers
Steve
You may also want to check the Arvo Part project at the DIY section of www.htguide.com for a passive dipole solution.
Cheers
Steve
The Orions certainly are. I have Orion-based dipoles and they replaced Wilson WATT/Puppies. I've also owned Genesis, Martin-Logan, top of the range Infinity, Sonus Faber, Magnepan and a bunch more.
The above mentioned Audio Artistry Beethovens were the Stereophile Speaker of the Year not so long ago and cost $23,000. I've heard them and my Orion derivatives are better, thanks to improved drivers and the fully active crossover.
Cheers
Steve
The above mentioned Audio Artistry Beethovens were the Stereophile Speaker of the Year not so long ago and cost $23,000. I've heard them and my Orion derivatives are better, thanks to improved drivers and the fully active crossover.
Cheers
Steve
Could an Orion be built with different...
Yes, I'm building an Orion/Phoenix/Bob5 sort of clone with SEAS mids/tweeters (MTM) and 4 TC Sounds TC+2 12'' woofers in H-frames.
Powered by two 100wpc Nakamichi PA5s and a PA5II for the woofs...active XO: Behringer DCX2496 and eq'd/RTA with a DEQ2496...also a custom 6 channel volume control after the DCX by Paul Hilgeman...I'm putting the woofers in Birch plywood h-frames braced with MDF that measure about 18x18x26 and the SEAS goodies will go in Corian "boxes" (not really) about 11" x26 x2.75" atop the H-frames. I might try resting them atop the woofer H-frames with some felt/rubber mat in between or else suspend them on ropes for decoupling.
Been scheming/planning/thinking about this setup for about a year, ever since I first saw Steve's website and noted his enthusiasm and experience with his Orionish clones--and now it's all coming together here since I took the plunge and got a table saw, router, Jasper Jig and all the drivers & amps. I'll be sure to post my impressions along with some photos here once I'm done. (maybe September/October or thereabouts--- I'm taking this one very small step at a time as it's been about 15 years since I was diying speakers and I'm more than a bit rusty...
Jeff in Hawaii but soon to be in audio nirvana
Yes, I'm building an Orion/Phoenix/Bob5 sort of clone with SEAS mids/tweeters (MTM) and 4 TC Sounds TC+2 12'' woofers in H-frames.
Powered by two 100wpc Nakamichi PA5s and a PA5II for the woofs...active XO: Behringer DCX2496 and eq'd/RTA with a DEQ2496...also a custom 6 channel volume control after the DCX by Paul Hilgeman...I'm putting the woofers in Birch plywood h-frames braced with MDF that measure about 18x18x26 and the SEAS goodies will go in Corian "boxes" (not really) about 11" x26 x2.75" atop the H-frames. I might try resting them atop the woofer H-frames with some felt/rubber mat in between or else suspend them on ropes for decoupling.
Been scheming/planning/thinking about this setup for about a year, ever since I first saw Steve's website and noted his enthusiasm and experience with his Orionish clones--and now it's all coming together here since I took the plunge and got a table saw, router, Jasper Jig and all the drivers & amps. I'll be sure to post my impressions along with some photos here once I'm done. (maybe September/October or thereabouts--- I'm taking this one very small step at a time as it's been about 15 years since I was diying speakers and I'm more than a bit rusty...
Jeff in Hawaii but soon to be in audio nirvana
Maybe this is for you then, not exactly an Orion but it's passive anyway. Btw I don't think it's THAT much cheaper with a passive solution, the crossover in a multiway dipole is quite complex and a very hard to replicate passively. With an active speaker you need more amps but they can be way smaller than an amp driving the passive speaker!
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=7644
Btw I don't think it's THAT much cheaper with a passive solution, the crossover in a multiway dipole is quite complex and a very hard to replicate passively. With an active speaker you need more amps but they can be way smaller than an amp driving the passive speaker! http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=7644
bhg41088,
From the Linkwitz' site it seems that the minimum (without amps) is $2300.
I guess your choice partly depends on what you already have as well - do you have a good amp(s) that you would want to use?
Are there other room considerations to be made - how close to a rear/side wall will they be used etc?
Have you considered other approaches, maybe the high efficiency ones - Dick Olsher's Bass Zilla for example?
I've just finished my latest project, a front horn with dipole bass, these bring all the benefits of dipole bass, with high efficiency and directional mid/top. In my opinion/experience and listening room constrainst - a much better option alround!
The Orion seems a good option, but there's a lot of complexity there, three cross-over points, but with still low efficiency and using traditional (i.e. dome type) tweeters - I'd try and listen to some other alternatives if you could arrange it.
Regards,
Jonathan
From the Linkwitz' site it seems that the minimum (without amps) is $2300.
I guess your choice partly depends on what you already have as well - do you have a good amp(s) that you would want to use?
Are there other room considerations to be made - how close to a rear/side wall will they be used etc?
Have you considered other approaches, maybe the high efficiency ones - Dick Olsher's Bass Zilla for example?
I've just finished my latest project, a front horn with dipole bass, these bring all the benefits of dipole bass, with high efficiency and directional mid/top. In my opinion/experience and listening room constrainst - a much better option alround!
The Orion seems a good option, but there's a lot of complexity there, three cross-over points, but with still low efficiency and using traditional (i.e. dome type) tweeters - I'd try and listen to some other alternatives if you could arrange it.
Regards,
Jonathan
bhg41088:
Unfortunately I have never heard the Orion. But designing good sounding passive crossovers is definitely not easy. And I would think that even an Orion with a good passive crossover cannot really compete with the standard active Orion.
However I have built the Thor. I think it's a great speaker. Of course I have no idea of how it compares against the Orion, but if the options are Thor, or a strange passive Orion, I would go for Thor.
Unfortunately I have never heard the Orion. But designing good sounding passive crossovers is definitely not easy. And I would think that even an Orion with a good passive crossover cannot really compete with the standard active Orion.
However I have built the Thor. I think it's a great speaker. Of course I have no idea of how it compares against the Orion, but if the options are Thor, or a strange passive Orion, I would go for Thor.
It seems like a passive would offer good results with the following:
all 24db LR slopes:
120LP per XLS 10" or as a pair
120HP and 1.4khz LP on Seas 8"
1.4khzHP on Seas Tweeter with 5khz Notch Filter
Then use 2 2 channel gainclones for the Mid and the tweeter and either 1 100x2 at 4ohms amp for the Bass, or 2 2x50 amps.
Im not sure why this, in combination with a EQ would not lend similar results.
Edit: The crossover is a clone of his active slopes and points, including the notch filter.
all 24db LR slopes:
120LP per XLS 10" or as a pair
120HP and 1.4khz LP on Seas 8"
1.4khzHP on Seas Tweeter with 5khz Notch Filter
Then use 2 2 channel gainclones for the Mid and the tweeter and either 1 100x2 at 4ohms amp for the Bass, or 2 2x50 amps.
Im not sure why this, in combination with a EQ would not lend similar results.
Edit: The crossover is a clone of his active slopes and points, including the notch filter.
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