I'm not talking about the waveguide. I'm talking about horn-loading a mid-driver in a 3-way system, which is what YOU were responding to with your "bond hair" response.
And my point still stands. Can one DIY a horn-loaded mid, and get it right?
Maybe it CAN be done, with dome good software and lots of time, but I sure don't know how.
Back to the OP's original question:
There's a very interesting box from EAW:
http://eaw.com/docs/1_Current_Products/KF/Spec_Sheets/KF394_SPECS_revA.pdf
3-way. Horn loaded midrange. 90x45º. 128 dB continuous. Excellent polar response. Can be run biamped. 65 lbs.
They tick all the boxes for me, except they are goofy looking things.
Looks good, though I've never heard them. I can't quite tell if those 10's feed a short waveguide or not, but at least with two of them, it's moving more air molecules than a single 12".
But also not a cheap system. Currently $3,800 each, street, and to really make them sing you'd want a processor that can do the "focus" dsp. Something like the EAW 8xxx which costs around 2 grand. Ouch. I think they've been around for quite a few years, though, so probably could be found used.
But I think these would be a no-compromise 2-speaker system.
There's a very interesting box from EAW:
http://eaw.com/docs/1_Current_Products/KF/Spec_Sheets/KF394_SPECS_revA.pdf
3-way. Horn loaded midrange. 90x45º. 128 dB continuous. Excellent polar response. Can be run biamped. 65 lbs.
They tick all the boxes for me, except they are goofy looking things.
Looks good, though I've never heard them. I can't quite tell if those 10's feed a short waveguide or not, but at least with two of them, it's moving more air molecules than a single 12".
But also not a cheap system. Currently $3,800 each, street, and to really make them sing you'd want a processor that can do the "focus" dsp. Something like the EAW 8xxx which costs around 2 grand. Ouch. I think they've been around for quite a few years, though, so probably could be found used.
But I think these would be a no-compromise 2-speaker system.
And once again your reading comprehension fails you. I'm taking about waveguides for mid-high speakers.
Jeez, Art, you'll never change......
The 2x10"s I use will do that fine. I agree that a 3" diaphragm HF is going to be needed, but I'd expect a good 12", 15" or pair of 10"s to do just fine in this situation. A single-10" would probably do it, too, if it's a good one. Look at how many people are using Danley SM80s, and they're sealed...
Chris
... Except this isn't your thread, though you do seem to have derailed it by accounting for around half of the posts.
I get that you're enthusiastic, but it might be time for you to start a single thread and do things properly.
Chris
PS - you can do this with 2x10" mids per side - YouTube - 85dBC-slow (103dB peak for this track) at the camera position, around 270 feet from the stacks.
10"s are Faital Pro 10FH520.
Yes....
New DIY Mid High | Sound Forums
2x12" horn-loaded mid around a 1.4" coax CD.
+9dB vs SM-80, with response down to 100Hz
Loads of options.
Chris661 -
1. if i were to go about a 1x10 +3 top, what drivers would you recommend (i am in Europe) and also how big a box would they equate to?
2. The youtube clip you show does it feature a DIY cab? is it horn loaded? if so, i am interested
I'm a big fan of my Faital Pro 10FH520 10" drivers. At full power, they see around 1KW peaks, and still sound great. I use an 18Sound ND1460 for high-frequencies.
The YouTube clip is my DIY system, which is all direct-radiators. Sometimes simple is best
Chris
Woah!
Me likey - Although I'd prefer a 2" exit.
Also, this is almost "cheating," in regards to my original question, since yours is a 2-way design. Your getting that lower pattern control "simply" by using a great CD with a low x-over. I was asking about horn-loading a midrange SPEAKER.
But heck, if it works and sounds good, I'm definitely intrigued.
Two questions, Mark:
1: What is the final dimensions & aproximate weight of these?
2: I see you used a Lake LM26 to tweak things. I assume you did something akin to Gunness focusing, or Fulcrum's "TQ" processing, yes?
With this box, or maybe the EAW UX8800, would a complete noob be able to learn how to measure & set all the required parameters? It seems a bit overwhelming to me, which is why I raised the question in the first place about DIY getting it right.
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I'm after exactly the same thing as the OP.
What's your point, exactly, that I should start a duplicate thread on the same subject?
And how exactly have I derailed it? I'm specifically giving answers and ideas that pertain to the original question.
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I disagree with your last point, as IMO surface area is as important (maybe more important) than just dB level, for getting decent throw.
But your 2 x 10" take on Peter's design looks really good. I could see that working great with just 2 boxes, for a rock band in a typical local bar.
I found a thread on this where you talk about it:
Double 10 BMS 4594HE B&C 10NDL64
Hi, It's not my design...belongs to a preeminent Australian live-sound guy named Peter Morris....also note his 60 degree version 60 Degree DIY Mid Hi | Sound Forums
You will see me in those threads as Mark Wilkinson..
What is midrange?
Any really good 1.4" CD will probably outrun anything reasonably sized, that put together with it, until you get to a design similar to Peter's DIYs.
So why go to 2"? What do you gain, especially vs the difficulty of sourcing VHF to keep up with the 2"HF?
It's a <80lb box..dimensions and plans are easily found in the threads
I use miniDSP processing, mainly for it's FIR capability.
It has taken me quite a while to get good at measuring....I think learning the processing is the easier part.
But Hey, if I can do it ...anybody can
UX8800 (or UX 3600, a much better buy), Lakes, etc, are not good choices.
Too expensive, and very limited capability, at least in terms of FIR capability, which is the name of the game IMO.
Please do.
In fact, I want to respond to a comment you made recently in that subwoofer thread. You were responding to Art, but it was re his comment about waveguides and TOP speakers, so the discussion belongs here. (I guess.)
Freddi, you wrote:
@weltersys - re:12cx in ported with horn - how about a larger version of Frazier's CAT40 speaker? if that's viable (?) what size would you make it?
==================
So I looked at the Frazier boxes today.
The Frazier concept is interesting. And you're right, it's kind of sort of what we were previously discussing, I assume a very short-throw version of what Art suggested. Starting with a coaxial driver takes care of the time alignment.
Oddly enough, I was working on my own concept speaker last night, and it was similar to the Frazier, except (IMO) a superior design:
Mine was based around the Radian 12" coaxial. My basic idea is to use ONLY vertical waveguides, (45º) and for the ENTIRE coaxial driver, leaving the existing 90º horizontal dispersion as is. This wouldn't focus as much energy forward as a full frontal waveguide, but it would certainly help, and it would lower the amount of splash off the ceiling and floor as well.
I plan on presenting my idea soon, if I can figure out how to make nice drawings and such.
- But my design suffers from the same problem as the Frazier:
You get better directivity above 500 Hz or so, but the end of the day, you still only have two 12” low-mid drivers on stage. With my design, I can't just add a second 12", because the first one (the coaxial) is being routed through vertical waveguides. I'm thinking maybe a second 12" , in a bottom ported chamber, could be mounted facing UP, into the coaxial chamber, thus also exiting via the same waveguides, but it would have to be time-aligned, and maybe some phase tricks, and stuff I am not even remotely qualified to deal with.
Sigh ....
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Anyway, personally I'm liking more & more Chris' dual 10" box. You could even use four of those, sideways, as a ini array, if you ever needed that much output.
I love my old Tannoy coaxials, and so am really dying to try the very impressive-seeming Radian, but Mark's earlier comment has me leaning even ore towards the dual 10 thing:
It's true that in many bars, you can't get away with running full stereo. And people sitting down will rarely be right in the stereo sweet spot, either. So maybe the lovely stereo imaging of a coaxial driver is not worth the effort. 2 x 10" give a more robust low-mid, which again is a big deal for me. Hmmm ....
I love my old Tannoy coaxials, and so am really dying to try the very impressive-seeming Radian, but Mark's earlier comment has me leaning even ore towards the dual 10 thing:
It's true that in many bars, you can't get away with running full stereo. And people sitting down will rarely be right in the stereo sweet spot, either. So maybe the lovely stereo imaging of a coaxial driver is not worth the effort. 2 x 10" give a more robust low-mid, which again is a big deal for me. Hmmm ....
I don't have plans, but it'd be easy to modify to be a 1x10". The plans I came up with are pretty simple - baffle area big enough for the horn and driver, 4x bass reflex ports, 3" diameter and 4.5" long (Monacor makes the right size, which is useful) in a square around the middle driver, on the back of the cabinet.
I went for four to aid convection cooling, and it also means I can block off one or more ports and drop the tuning frequency lower into the bass for smaller gigs without subs.
HF horn is an RCF HF94, which I like.
For what it's worth, in the video each 10" is seeing around 1KW peaks, and the HF units are seeing 300w peaks. The active crossover was 1.2kHz, LR4. I don't think I'd ask much more from a 1.4" driver unless there was a horn-loaded 6-10" midrange unit in play.
Chris
I've been playing with lining the cabinets recently, but improvements have been pretty minimal. Definitely no stuffing - that'd greatly reduce air flow into/out of the ports and around the drivers, so things would get hot in there!
IIRC, it was around 40L for two drivers (internal 78x26x20cm), so take 1/3rd off that for a 1x10" design.
Chris
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