Hi!
I am looking to build or buy 2 tops to go with my Danley TH Minis.
What would be the way to match them up/find a good top for the subs? manufacturers SPL reading? (lol)
I am eventually looking to build 2 more subs, but for now i have 2 of them. I am somewhat of a noob when it comes to these things, even though i have been a professional studio engineer for long. I have build those two subs and a Fearful 12/6 basscab. Thats all the cab building i have done, but i am really interested and eager to learn.
Looking for something smallish, efficient and great sounding.
I guess 2-way would be the best or at least most common way to go about this top.
I am using them for smallish venues. (anything up to 250ppl)
Ideas, comments and plans are welcome.
Please do not be dis-respective Thanks '
I am looking to build or buy 2 tops to go with my Danley TH Minis.
What would be the way to match them up/find a good top for the subs? manufacturers SPL reading? (lol)
I am eventually looking to build 2 more subs, but for now i have 2 of them. I am somewhat of a noob when it comes to these things, even though i have been a professional studio engineer for long. I have build those two subs and a Fearful 12/6 basscab. Thats all the cab building i have done, but i am really interested and eager to learn.
Looking for something smallish, efficient and great sounding.
I guess 2-way would be the best or at least most common way to go about this top.
I am using them for smallish venues. (anything up to 250ppl)
Ideas, comments and plans are welcome.
Please do not be dis-respective
Thanks '
I will answer them in the opposite order:
I do have some measurement gear. I mic, a laptop and roomeq and some old license for smart(can't get it to work).
I have a few amps and I am looking to buy at least one new amp anyway. Been lookin at QSC gdx 4 for an example.
Size should be not bigger than a basic 1+15 plastic active top. But this hardly is the problem. Weight should be small enough to mount them on a pole that is mounted to the sub.
Budget. . .
To be honest I don't really know what to expect, so it's hard to say really. Usually I go for top quality and build/purchase a part at a time kind of.
Other points:
8 or 10 sounds rather small, however my comparison in tops is those basic plastic housing active full range cabs. I own the JBL EON 15+1 mk1 and use those atm. They however are getting old and are a weird shape that doesn't fit well in a station wagon. Sound wise they are nothing special but funnily much better then any of the smaller and newer tops that I have tried. Those include Mackie 12" thump, dB tech opera 10" and a few others I cannot remember. I had some good experience with more expensive Yamaha active system 12"+tweet. Ofc synergy horns were amazing but out of my league in price and build complexity.
A good 10 or 12" top would be best I think. I have looked at 6x4" driver pole top too. But I am very open to suggestions (and manipulation) ��
I do have some measurement gear. I mic, a laptop and roomeq and some old license for smart(can't get it to work).
I have a few amps and I am looking to buy at least one new amp anyway. Been lookin at QSC gdx 4 for an example.
Size should be not bigger than a basic 1+15 plastic active top. But this hardly is the problem. Weight should be small enough to mount them on a pole that is mounted to the sub.
Budget. . .
To be honest I don't really know what to expect, so it's hard to say really. Usually I go for top quality and build/purchase a part at a time kind of.
Other points:
8 or 10 sounds rather small, however my comparison in tops is those basic plastic housing active full range cabs. I own the JBL EON 15+1 mk1 and use those atm. They however are getting old and are a weird shape that doesn't fit well in a station wagon. Sound wise they are nothing special but funnily much better then any of the smaller and newer tops that I have tried. Those include Mackie 12" thump, dB tech opera 10" and a few others I cannot remember. I had some good experience with more expensive Yamaha active system 12"+tweet. Ofc synergy horns were amazing but out of my league in price and build complexity.
A good 10 or 12" top would be best I think. I have looked at 6x4" driver pole top too. But I am very open to suggestions (and manipulation) ��
I don't think the fact that they are Danley mini's dictates what type of tops, other than matching your maximum dB level. - And if you will eventually have four subs, then you have plenty of volume for 250 people.
What LPF do you plan to use on the subs? That's the tail that wags the dog.
Is it strictly DJ'ing, or live band? That makes a BIG difference as far as the high mids are handled.
Budget? You said "Usually I go for top quality and build/purchase a part at a time kind of. " So look at Danley & Fulcrum Audio. After the sticker shock wears off, we can talk again !
Weight limit?
---------------------
I do gigs about the same size, BOTH DJ and live band, so I'm in the same boat, I'm even a pro recording engineer, so picky about sound like you are) and it's a mind-numbing thing if you want high quality inna small package.
For year I use a pair of Tannoy T300's, which are a very high-end 12" coaxial with processing. I love them to death, except once you get about 40 feet away, the low mid just die like a dog. (crossing the subs at 120 Hz, which is as high as I like to go.)
I've retired them. I still like the coaxial sound, in general, but if I go that way, I might opt for a 3-way, with maybe a 10" coaxial that has the beefiest HF I can find, plus either a 12" or a 15" for the low mids. If I go with just a single 12" coaxial per side, it will be the Radian 5312BeNEO, since it has a 3" driver with a 2" exit, which is pretty unique for coaxials. And a Be diaphram. Mmmm....
Even better would be a fully horn-loaded system, like the Danley SH series, but those are horrifically expensive, and I don't think they can be made DIY.
Anther though I had would be to use a rotatable 45 X 90 horn, and have an extra pair to use as a mini array when needed, turning the horns to 45º horizontal. That way you have twice the cone area for the low mids, which should throw further. However this setup is not without compromises.
Well..... I dunno.
What LPF do you plan to use on the subs? That's the tail that wags the dog.
Is it strictly DJ'ing, or live band? That makes a BIG difference as far as the high mids are handled.
Budget? You said "Usually I go for top quality and build/purchase a part at a time kind of. " So look at Danley & Fulcrum Audio. After the sticker shock wears off, we can talk again !
Weight limit?
---------------------
I do gigs about the same size, BOTH DJ and live band, so I'm in the same boat, I'm even a pro recording engineer, so picky about sound like you are) and it's a mind-numbing thing if you want high quality inna small package.
For year I use a pair of Tannoy T300's, which are a very high-end 12" coaxial with processing. I love them to death, except once you get about 40 feet away, the low mid just die like a dog. (crossing the subs at 120 Hz, which is as high as I like to go.)
I've retired them. I still like the coaxial sound, in general, but if I go that way, I might opt for a 3-way, with maybe a 10" coaxial that has the beefiest HF I can find, plus either a 12" or a 15" for the low mids. If I go with just a single 12" coaxial per side, it will be the Radian 5312BeNEO, since it has a 3" driver with a 2" exit, which is pretty unique for coaxials. And a Be diaphram. Mmmm....
Even better would be a fully horn-loaded system, like the Danley SH series, but those are horrifically expensive, and I don't think they can be made DIY.
Anther though I had would be to use a rotatable 45 X 90 horn, and have an extra pair to use as a mini array when needed, turning the horns to 45º horizontal. That way you have twice the cone area for the low mids, which should throw further. However this setup is not without compromises.
Well..... I dunno.
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Another point:
You wrote "Weight should be small enough to mount them on a pole that is mounted to the sub."
I assume you know that it's better to cluster the subs in the center, yes? More volume, & no power alley. Also, you might get a few precious Hz of LF extension this way, though supposedly that phenomenon is not as strong with TH subs as it is for folded horns. Still ...
I put my subs under my tops for 20 years. Came to my senses about 5 years ago, and I can't believe how much better it is. I can be a problem aesthetically, (hence how I'm always "fighting" with Art about depth constraints ) but well worth it. Some corners of the room may sound like cow dung, but the dance floor will always be slamming. Plus, anyone sitting at the close corners doesn't get pummeled with side-radiating LF.
You wrote "Weight should be small enough to mount them on a pole that is mounted to the sub."
I assume you know that it's better to cluster the subs in the center, yes? More volume, & no power alley. Also, you might get a few precious Hz of LF extension this way, though supposedly that phenomenon is not as strong with TH subs as it is for folded horns. Still ...
I put my subs under my tops for 20 years. Came to my senses about 5 years ago, and I can't believe how much better it is. I can be a problem aesthetically, (hence how I'm always "fighting" with Art about depth constraints
) but well worth it. Some corners of the room may sound like cow dung, but the dance floor will always be slamming. Plus, anyone sitting at the close corners doesn't get pummeled with side-radiating LF.The TH minis are so far the best audio gear i have spent money on. And believe i have spent money SO yes, i do like em. Especially the th minis. More so than the bigger brothers. For size/sound/power ratio they are unbeatable to me.
I do mostly live bands and very little DJ stuff.
I usually (depending on the top ofc) cross the TH minis over at around 100-125Hz with a -24dB/oct BW.
The horn loading is super nice with the Danley SH series, but expensive. They make for far throw stereo imaging nicely. However i recently noticed that many small gigs are in such weird spaces and positions in the room, that even whilst doing almost mono, i cannot cover the audience properly with 2 cabs. For example when the room is very wide and stage stage happens to be in the middle of the longer wall..
I tried some of the recent db Tech Ingenia series models at a church recently when a guy was demoing them. The are a pillar type speaker with huge 120degree coverage (horizontal). I do not like that sound of those for punchy rock stuff, but i really liked the "loungy" vibe they provided to the whole room. I considered something along those lines might work well for me, since many venues are weirdly shaped. I thought about making something slightly similar from the Eminence Alpha series, but do not really have enough knowledge and experience to design them properly. OFC Eminence list cab designs etc, but usually there are better things around when one considers the options.
I feel the 2 TH minis give me plenty bass for my kinda stuff (250ppl is pushing it), but i am sort of wondering what the max SPL for the top should be. Any 10 or 12 + tweet will only give about 119-125db approx. max SPL(126 allready very high and expensive). Would around 120 do? Or should i aim for the 125 marker to keep up? I would honestly rather have fewer drivers (less weight, less phase issues, more direct sound) and these delivering all that i need even with 4 subs. I could ofc add side fills with these later.
considering that ^^would a 15+tweet be overkill? Just feels strange having a sub that is 12" with a 15" top...
SO yes, i do like em. Especially the th minis. More so than the bigger brothers. For size/sound/power ratio they are unbeatable to me. I do mostly live bands and very little DJ stuff.
I usually (depending on the top ofc) cross the TH minis over at around 100-125Hz with a -24dB/oct BW.
The horn loading is super nice with the Danley SH series, but expensive. They make for far throw stereo imaging nicely. However i recently noticed that many small gigs are in such weird spaces and positions in the room, that even whilst doing almost mono, i cannot cover the audience properly with 2 cabs. For example when the room is very wide and stage stage happens to be in the middle of the longer wall..
I tried some of the recent db Tech Ingenia series models at a church recently when a guy was demoing them. The are a pillar type speaker with huge 120degree coverage (horizontal). I do not like that sound of those for punchy rock stuff, but i really liked the "loungy" vibe they provided to the whole room. I considered something along those lines might work well for me, since many venues are weirdly shaped. I thought about making something slightly similar from the Eminence Alpha series, but do not really have enough knowledge and experience to design them properly. OFC Eminence list cab designs etc, but usually there are better things around when one considers the options.
I feel the 2 TH minis give me plenty bass for my kinda stuff (250ppl is pushing it), but i am sort of wondering what the max SPL for the top should be. Any 10 or 12 + tweet will only give about 119-125db approx. max SPL(126 allready very high and expensive). Would around 120 do? Or should i aim for the 125 marker to keep up? I would honestly rather have fewer drivers (less weight, less phase issues, more direct sound) and these delivering all that i need even with 4 subs. I could ofc add side fills with these later.
considering that ^^would a 15+tweet be overkill? Just feels strange having a sub that is 12" with a 15" top...
I forgot to add one more option, although it most likely won't work out, but thinking outside the box: (well, thinking in FRONT of the box: )
I had considered making those Radian 12" coaxials, but then putting some kind of DIY 90x45º horn in front of them, to direct more of the mid frequencies forward. This was seeming like a brilliant idea to me, until I read this: http://eaw.com/docs/6_Technical_Information/White_Papers/AX_whtppr_L.pdf
Still, as with many things in audio, the negative phase artifacts may not actually be that objectionable, and it might be a workable trade-off. I'l soon be doing an experiment with my old tannoys, to see if this might actually be worth trying.
Another way to go at the same concept (more low-mids throw from a small box-on-a-stick) would be to forget coaxial. Use a good 90x60 or 90x45º HF system, and just put the custom large horn in front of the 12". (or a 15" if you're that type, but 12" is a better idea for a few very good reasons.)
You would still have some phase issues with the 12, but they probably would be nearly as objectionable.
Of course, there may be other issues, like time alignment, or something I don't understand at all. Otherwise, why wouldn't everybody already be doing this? But it seems reasonable to me at the moment. (famous last words...... )
I had considered making those Radian 12" coaxials, but then putting some kind of DIY 90x45º horn in front of them, to direct more of the mid frequencies forward. This was seeming like a brilliant idea to me, until I read this: http://eaw.com/docs/6_Technical_Information/White_Papers/AX_whtppr_L.pdf
Still, as with many things in audio, the negative phase artifacts may not actually be that objectionable, and it might be a workable trade-off. I'l soon be doing an experiment with my old tannoys, to see if this might actually be worth trying.
Another way to go at the same concept (more low-mids throw from a small box-on-a-stick) would be to forget coaxial. Use a good 90x60 or 90x45º HF system, and just put the custom large horn in front of the 12". (or a 15" if you're that type, but 12" is a better idea for a few very good reasons.)
You would still have some phase issues with the 12, but they probably would be nearly as objectionable.
Of course, there may be other issues, like time alignment, or something I don't understand at all. Otherwise, why wouldn't everybody already be doing this? But it seems reasonable to me at the moment. (famous last words...... )
My beloved T300's put out around 124dB or so, continuous. For 250 people, they would not be enough. (even forgetting the lack of low-mids throw, which is a HUGE deal for a rock vocal.)
My personal feeling is that for a typical point-source speaker, using only two, "we" need about 128 continuous, minimum. YMMV, of course.
But again, I have to stress the issue that's currently making me nuts, which is low-mids throw. A dB / frequency rating at 1 meter doesn't tell the whole story. (Not to mention polar response.) I find that a 15" + horn carries a bit farther at 100 hz, maybe another 10-20 feet, but there are significant downsides to using a 15. (See a recent thread I started on that exact question.) Even the tech at Radian told me to use their 12" coaxial, not their 15", for the same reasons the guys on this forum did.
Now, if you're going 3-way, that's a different story. Although even then... My favorite ever box for rock vocals was the old Turbosound 3-way TQ-440. 12" + I think a 6" for mids, plus a HF driver. OMG, those things were spectaclar! Unfortunately, they had a very narrow dispersion, and I can't afford four of them.
Fulcrum audio has a box I'm very intrigued by, with two 12". one being a coaxial. Very nice dsp processing, too. But the price is right there with Danley. OMG, OH MY GOOOOOOD !!
Gotta' try to roll my own.
those kind with huge dsp processing behind that i wont be able to replicate in a diy setting are ofc not the greatest option. I just built a 12/6/1 basscab with a Kappalite 3012LF an Alphalite 6 and a tweeter yet to come But it is rather big.. ofc it goes down to f3 of 44Hz which is way beyond my need for a top. but why not use a 3 way system? i guess the crossover frequencies are the biggest factor why most ppl dont use those?
But it is rather big.. ofc it goes down to f3 of 44Hz which is way beyond my need for a top. but why not use a 3 way system? i guess the crossover frequencies are the biggest factor why most ppl dont use those?Yep.
That's why I'm looking at beryllium diaphrams. Theoretically, their main distortion frequency is about an octave higher than with titanium. I haven't heard them though, so.....
It's probably why I also prefer 2" exits to 1.4", based on a pretty small sampling that I've personally heard.
Take a good look at that Radian coaxial I mentioned. 2" exit, beryllium, 128 dB continuous. And the frequency response in a 2.3 ft/2 cabinet is astoundingly flat. (However they have yet to publish any off-axis / lobing graphs)
This Radian will probably humiliate the Danley SM-80, which is probably using an 80º B&C coaxial. (12" coaxial, but a 1.4" exit HF.)
Sadly, it's 90º conical, but I guess with HF to spare, that's not a deal-breaker. My old T300's were 90º conical as well, and they sounds astoundingly good at 30 feet.
Again, though, the low mids were always lacking at the back of the room. So I'm back to thinking about using them with an added 12", and screw the phase issues.
Or maybe build a small, 90º horizontal 3-way, if I can figure that out.
Or maybe I'll just win the lottery, & buy a pair of Fulcrum FA22ac's. ($5700 each !)
I wish the Danley SM-96 went a little louder. I've heard them and they're killer, but just two of them would be marginal for a rock band, in anything but a smallish room. I wouldn't want to always be pushing them right to the edge.
Four Sm-60f's (60x60º) would be the shizzle, that's kind of my dream system, but again, the price!
In my next life....
those kind with huge dsp processing behind that i wont be able to replicate in a diy setting are ofc not the greatest option. I just built a 12/6/1 basscab with a Kappalite 3012LF an Alphalite 6 and a tweeter yet to come
I think the problem with a DIY 3-way system lies in the high-mid dispersion. This is for PA use, not home hi-fi.
If you look at the Turbosound TQ series, or the EAW AX series, and the like, the mid-driver is always horn loaded. For good reason.
Are there DIY parts available that would let us do that? If so, I'm very interested.
Then you should design your tops to have at least the same output level as the LF (128 dBSPL/131 dB peak) at the usual crossover point of 100-125 Hz and above.
A bass reflex 2x12"(with around 6mm Xmax) with a 3" diaphragm HF driver per side would get to that level reasonably clean.
Less than that, the mains will struggle to get above a rock band's stage level, much less sound "airy or authoritative".
Glad you're here, Art!
I was just about to post a link to that current subwoofer thread, concerning adding front flares / waveguides / whatever you choose to call them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...estions-diy-danley-th-mini-2.html#post5453433
Your last answer to me could be a very interesting addition to THIS discussion.
------------------------------
Let me recap, for everyone else:
We were discussing if a waveguide could be used in front of a 12" coaxial cabinet, to increase the "throw" a bit. I referenced an EAW white paper that explained why a 90x 60 or 90 x 45 flare would cause phase issues, and you mentioned the same issues.
But then you wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
1) A large 90º x 90º "waveguide" will give the lower end as much as a 3 dB increase in forward gain. The same "waveguide" can be integrated with a top elevation box and the LF cabinets also.
Again, I don't understand the physics of this, but I believe you.
So: How large would this horn have to be? - And would it have a 12" throat, or would the throat have to cover the ports as well?
I'm thinking the former, because the sound coming out of the ports will probably be mostly omni-directional anyway, but then again I have no idea, really.
Would it make sense to try this, instead of (for instance) adding a second 12" to the coaxial, which would also add size & weight & also potentially add phase issues?
Maybe this front flare (or whatever) could be detachable, as with your Keystone subs, and thus the basic system would still be nice & portable, for smaller rooms & fast setups. I really like this idea, but I have no idea how to get more info on this specific application.
I was just about to post a link to that current subwoofer thread, concerning adding front flares / waveguides / whatever you choose to call them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...estions-diy-danley-th-mini-2.html#post5453433
Your last answer to me could be a very interesting addition to THIS discussion.
------------------------------
Let me recap, for everyone else:
We were discussing if a waveguide could be used in front of a 12" coaxial cabinet, to increase the "throw" a bit. I referenced an EAW white paper that explained why a 90x 60 or 90 x 45 flare would cause phase issues, and you mentioned the same issues.
But then you wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
1) A large 90º x 90º "waveguide" will give the lower end as much as a 3 dB increase in forward gain. The same "waveguide" can be integrated with a top elevation box and the LF cabinets also.
Again, I don't understand the physics of this, but I believe you.
So: How large would this horn have to be? - And would it have a 12" throat, or would the throat have to cover the ports as well?
I'm thinking the former, because the sound coming out of the ports will probably be mostly omni-directional anyway, but then again I have no idea, really.
Would it make sense to try this, instead of (for instance) adding a second 12" to the coaxial, which would also add size & weight & also potentially add phase issues?
Maybe this front flare (or whatever) could be detachable, as with your Keystone subs, and thus the basic system would still be nice & portable, for smaller rooms & fast setups. I really like this idea, but I have no idea how to get more info on this specific application.
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There are, they are generally made with a table saw, though using a circular and jig saw with plenty of Bondo-hair can "get er done" ;^).
1) Waveguide size is determined by you, the bigger the better. The ports can be included within the waveguide.
2) In your case, adding a second 12" running up to around 315 Hz would be the easiest solution, since your complaint is lack of low-mids.
3)The SynTripP uses a detachable secondary horn flare, placed vertically that horn flare would be very near the correct size and angles for a 12" coax and 12" "helper" cone. Between adding a second 12" and the waveguide, low mid output would increase by around 9 dB, and sound about twice as loud- and reduce off-axis stage spill considerably.
SynTripP: 2-way 2-part Virtual Single Point Source Horn
Yeah, but don't you have to get the time alignment, etc just right?
I guess that can also be done, but it's a tad beyond my pay grade right now.
Anyway, I'm MASSIVELY interested in the idea of a waveguide in front of the 12" coaxial. Again, I don't even know where to start. It obviously can't be the same design as with the subs. I assume it would have to be 90 x 90 conical, to match the coaxial driver, no?
And how deep to have any effect?
And again, covering the port, or no need for that?
I've never seen this done, ever.
If it can work, it might be a game-changer, but I suspect you're sending me down a dark rabbit hole with far too many mushrooms.
1) Time alignment must be done between the co-ax cone & HF driver, an external wave guide won't change that.1)Yeah, but don't you have to get the time alignment, etc just right?
2)It obviously can't be the same design as with the subs.
3)I assume it would have to be 90 x 90 conical, to match the coaxial driver, no?
4)And how deep to have any effect?
5)And again, covering the port, or no need for that?
6)I've never seen this done, ever.
7)If it can work, it might be a game-changer, but I suspect you're sending me down a dark rabbit hole with far too many mushrooms.
2)Explain why not.
3)90 x 90 for the initial portion, though it could flair to a wider angle using a exponential or tractrix expansion. Simple straight sided conical is easier, and works fine.
4)The deeper and wider, the more increase in forward gain to a lower frequency. The SynTripP post shows the exact difference "with and without" for the secondary horn extension.
5)My preference would be to include the port in the waveguide, not sure what you mean by "covering the port".
6) Wonders never cease ;^). "Barn Doors" have been in use with theater LF cabinets for close to a century now, but you have to look behind the screen to see the Wizard...
7) If +3dB is a "game-changer", and you don't mind dealing with some rather large "dixie cups", no problem.
You don't need to go down the rabbit hole to do a proof of concept test, simply take two pieces of plywood and put them at 45 degrees to the edge of your co-ax, and A/B the pair with and without. If you don't have any shelves or plywood handy, use other speaker cabinets, but short the drivers so they don't become resonators.
Cheers,
Art
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