"SA8535 beats G1"
Sorry, no. It will most certainly with regard to SPL, but we are talking about domestic audio playback - not sound reinforcement. The thing that SA touts so highly, spectral decay, is substantially bettered by the G1 where its the most important - the midrange. Additionally this depends HIGHLY on the quality of the amplification (on wether you'll here a difference or not). There is a real "voodo" mix going on with an amplifier's dampening factor and true ribbons that you can't get with planars, (something to do with the suspension creating a MECHANICAL dampening factor for the planar I suspect).
Impact has a lot to do with driver eff. & forcefactor, and dampening factor of the amplifier (along with its current capability). The amp I mentioned has a very good dampening factor with high current - what it suffers from is ONLY headroom. I think you would find that if you substituted Bruce's amps in your system you wouldn't take them out.
For the PHL 10 inch, the 3450 - it has greater X-max and higher eff.. most certainly NOT the 3860 (which will have a curtailed bass response) As far as loading I mean OPEN BAFFLE, i.e. no enclosure - just a baffle to screw the drivers frame to. The size of the baffle will determine when dipole cancelation will occur - if its a very small baffle it will occur starting just below 400 Hz. This works though because you'll have your pair of woofers crossing over in conjuntion with the acoustic high-pass crossover created by the dipole cancelation (probably a 1st order low-pass on the woofer around 300 HZ considering baffle step loss - just a guestimate though).
still though, the more I think about it the more I like my most recent suggestion (the 2 Supravoxes in a T-line with the G1) (though not if you cranking the system past 105 db at 1 meter).
Sorry, no. It will most certainly with regard to SPL, but we are talking about domestic audio playback - not sound reinforcement. The thing that SA touts so highly, spectral decay, is substantially bettered by the G1 where its the most important - the midrange. Additionally this depends HIGHLY on the quality of the amplification (on wether you'll here a difference or not). There is a real "voodo" mix going on with an amplifier's dampening factor and true ribbons that you can't get with planars, (something to do with the suspension creating a MECHANICAL dampening factor for the planar I suspect).
Impact has a lot to do with driver eff. & forcefactor, and dampening factor of the amplifier (along with its current capability). The amp I mentioned has a very good dampening factor with high current - what it suffers from is ONLY headroom. I think you would find that if you substituted Bruce's amps in your system you wouldn't take them out.
For the PHL 10 inch, the 3450 - it has greater X-max and higher eff.. most certainly NOT the 3860 (which will have a curtailed bass response) As far as loading I mean OPEN BAFFLE, i.e. no enclosure - just a baffle to screw the drivers frame to. The size of the baffle will determine when dipole cancelation will occur - if its a very small baffle it will occur starting just below 400 Hz. This works though because you'll have your pair of woofers crossing over in conjuntion with the acoustic high-pass crossover created by the dipole cancelation (probably a 1st order low-pass on the woofer around 300 HZ considering baffle step loss - just a guestimate though).
still though, the more I think about it the more I like my most recent suggestion (the 2 Supravoxes in a T-line with the G1) (though not if you cranking the system past 105 db at 1 meter).
Audiophile quality 'sound reinforcement' is my goal for home use.
While one SA driver per channel is plenty, I'm shooting higher and
planning to use four SA per channel (small line source). If I had more
funds, I would do eight per channel, but that is really a different
design that I have planned. Fun + punishment = Funishment[tm].
This isn't for normal people
:
While one SA driver per channel is plenty, I'm shooting higher and
planning to use four SA per channel (small line source). If I had more
funds, I would do eight per channel, but that is really a different
design that I have planned. Fun + punishment = Funishment[tm].
This isn't for normal people
:
What a beautiful tread. I always like reading Thylantir's posts, he is right on. Since I have my speakers almost in exact config. you are seeking, I would just stress that type of amp will define your sound. I use 2A3 Cary monoblocks for the Aurum Esg3 and it sounds perfect. I just have finished Gainclone amp (BrianGT group buy) and tried it on Aurums. Very revealing but certainly not harsh, completely different from my tubs. Having tube sound for a long time, I was surprised with so much highs coming out. The beauty is that ether way, tubes or good solid state, they sound great, relaxing and undistorted. Everything else is just a matter of taste.
I would also agree that with PHL 3450 great crossover point would be 2,2K. If you go higher there would be noticeable beaming in mid tones, and if you go lower you would be making your ribbon working very hard - easily damaged. When you hear PHLs, you will want them covering voices and piano, they are awesome at that.
The difference between 3450 and 3451 is 8 and 16 ohms impedance, otherwise they are the same.
I was very happy with e-Speakers, Andre is great. Very helpful and honest.
Good luck with your project
AR2
I would also agree that with PHL 3450 great crossover point would be 2,2K. If you go higher there would be noticeable beaming in mid tones, and if you go lower you would be making your ribbon working very hard - easily damaged. When you hear PHLs, you will want them covering voices and piano, they are awesome at that.
The difference between 3450 and 3451 is 8 and 16 ohms impedance, otherwise they are the same.
I was very happy with e-Speakers, Andre is great. Very helpful and honest.
Good luck with your project
AR2
I connected a cheap portable CD player to the SA tweeters
for comedy reasons.
Headphone output --> SA tweeter.
no crossover.
I did get some sound out of the tweeter.
It's funny to drive a speaker with only a small signal preamp.
The drawback to high sensitivity drivers is they tend to 'amplify'
weaknesses in the electronic gear you use -- mainly noise.
for comedy reasons.
Headphone output --> SA tweeter.
no crossover.
I did get some sound out of the tweeter.
It's funny to drive a speaker with only a small signal preamp.
The drawback to high sensitivity drivers is they tend to 'amplify'
weaknesses in the electronic gear you use -- mainly noise.
Conceptually the design would be something like this:
http://www.alonbyacarian.com/index2.htm
click on either lotus elite
with the ribbon centered obove the PHL mid;
the PHL mid open in the rear;
The 2 TAD drivers in a bass reflex enclosure below.
Say, with your thrist for SPL you might ask the guy your conscripting for the crossover to make a pair of Bruces T-8's for you from scratch (the design is in is audio reality book - as is his preamp.. use EL519's instead of EL509's)
http://www.alonbyacarian.com/index2.htm
click on either lotus elite
with the ribbon centered obove the PHL mid;
the PHL mid open in the rear;
The 2 TAD drivers in a bass reflex enclosure below.
Say, with your thrist for SPL you might ask the guy your conscripting for the crossover to make a pair of Bruces T-8's for you from scratch (the design is in is audio reality book - as is his preamp.. use EL519's instead of EL509's)
Hard to get, but these are great woofers for that application,
my favorite.
http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TDdrivers.html
TD15H Apollo
Even the 12" is great. The 10" would not be recommended
for this application.
Don't let the 15" size dissuade you, it has incredible sound
quality for a 15" woofer. You can operate this full range
and enjoy it completely, thus any low pass crossover you
chose will work with no issues.
I have eight of these beasts, two more coming soon.
It' been a long long long journey to get Apollo versions,
all hand made woofers by Nick. What is not shown on
the website is the much longer 'newer' phase plugs (chrome or
black).
Works great ported or sealed and the power handling of the
Apollo is incredible. I drove mine with 600w and the phase
plug is not even warm. I had to drive the amp into constant
clipping to warm up the VC It can easily handle a 1kw amp
as long as you don't exceed mechanical limits. Keep in mind
it's not really a subwoofer, but in a ported box it performs
well.
If you want to go SPL mad, integrate this with a monster
subwoofer and high pass the Lambda to minimize low end
excursion - to keep it from hitting mechanical limits.
Bigger is better 
my favorite.
http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TDdrivers.html
TD15H Apollo
Even the 12" is great. The 10" would not be recommended
for this application.
Don't let the 15" size dissuade you, it has incredible sound
quality for a 15" woofer. You can operate this full range
and enjoy it completely, thus any low pass crossover you
chose will work with no issues.
I have eight of these beasts, two more coming soon.
It' been a long long long journey to get Apollo versions,
all hand made woofers by Nick. What is not shown on
the website is the much longer 'newer' phase plugs (chrome or
black).
Works great ported or sealed and the power handling of the
Apollo is incredible. I drove mine with 600w and the phase
plug is not even warm. I had to drive the amp into constant
clipping to warm up the VC It can easily handle a 1kw amp
as long as you don't exceed mechanical limits. Keep in mind
it's not really a subwoofer, but in a ported box it performs
well.
If you want to go SPL mad, integrate this with a monster
subwoofer and high pass the Lambda to minimize low end
excursion - to keep it from hitting mechanical limits.
Bigger is better
My understanding of the differences between the 3450 and 3451 are that the 3451 has a flat foam surround, extra cone doping and a higher QTC. My 3451 is an 8-ohm speaker.
I presently building my speakers with a Heil (the big dipole one) tweeter, an open baffle 3451 and a linkwitz transformed ev 18W. Will probably replace with a G1 when funds permit. Still testing but will likely crossover at 250hz (actively) and 1.5K (passively) with a Bryston 4b on the bottom and 300bs or my DIY Aleph5 on top. Should rock.
AR2: how much baffle step did you get with the 3450 on that small baffle of yours (nice job on your speakers BTW)? What slopes are you using between the PHL and the ESG’s?
I presently building my speakers with a Heil (the big dipole one) tweeter, an open baffle 3451 and a linkwitz transformed ev 18W. Will probably replace with a G1 when funds permit. Still testing but will likely crossover at 250hz (actively) and 1.5K (passively) with a Bryston 4b on the bottom and 300bs or my DIY Aleph5 on top. Should rock.
AR2: how much baffle step did you get with the 3450 on that small baffle of yours (nice job on your speakers BTW)? What slopes are you using between the PHL and the ESG’s?
jonk said:
The Heils are a pretty good ribbon ... replacing them might not be a step forward.
Chris & i have built 2 systems with the Heils, a 3-way similar to yours (used an Emineance instead of the Audax, because the customer was cheap) and an even better 2 way using a pr of Fostex 9" in a push-push arrangement.
dave
AR-2 :
Why u say that If I make a lower crossover it could cause difficulties in the Ribbon? Using G1 wouldn't have problems down to 1500hz with a good crossover
ScottG :
(Something that doesn't match with this thread)
I have heard the Alon Lotus Elite but I didn't really liked their sound. Is it because it's open baffle?
Thanks for the help in my thread guys!
Why u say that If I make a lower crossover it could cause difficulties in the Ribbon? Using G1 wouldn't have problems down to 1500hz with a good crossover
ScottG :
(Something that doesn't match with this thread)
I have heard the Alon Lotus Elite but I didn't really liked their sound. Is it because it's open baffle?
Thanks for the help in my thread guys!
I don't know, I've only heard their earliest creations.. which were pretty good but bloated in the bass and dipole "phasey" in the mids (between 1 - 3 kHz). By "phasey" I mean that every recording sounded similarly expansive providing a sound stage that always seemed to be the same size regardless of recording.
I will say though that its 99.999999999% likely that it is FAR less dynamic and cosiderably less transparent. To remove any "effects" that the dipole might inject into the sound, just use some absorptive fabric on the PHL rear frame (- SL's site, Linkwitz Labs, goes into this.)
The link was really only to give a physical "description" of the loading scheme.
..
If your utilizing a 24db an octave filter on the tweeter then you won't have any problems at 1500 Hz. BUT as far a balance is concerned you MIGHT prefer the the crossover higher - a subjective thing, but as mentioned off-axis performance begins to suffer on the mid as you go higher in freq..
..
you know I went to E-Speakers site to see the PHL3451 as opposed to the PHL3450 and it looks as if there is NO difference (I mean even the pdf file is the same), i.e. Andre is just "re-badging" for marketing purposes. So I'd say go ahead with it, (but you can always ask him b4 purchasing). Also ask him if he can get the TAD TL-1101H (after all he is offering other TAD components for sale).
I will say though that its 99.999999999% likely that it is FAR less dynamic and cosiderably less transparent. To remove any "effects" that the dipole might inject into the sound, just use some absorptive fabric on the PHL rear frame (- SL's site, Linkwitz Labs, goes into this.)
The link was really only to give a physical "description" of the loading scheme.
..
If your utilizing a 24db an octave filter on the tweeter then you won't have any problems at 1500 Hz. BUT as far a balance is concerned you MIGHT prefer the the crossover higher - a subjective thing, but as mentioned off-axis performance begins to suffer on the mid as you go higher in freq..
..
you know I went to E-Speakers site to see the PHL3451 as opposed to the PHL3450 and it looks as if there is NO difference (I mean even the pdf file is the same), i.e. Andre is just "re-badging" for marketing purposes. So I'd say go ahead with it, (but you can always ask him b4 purchasing). Also ask him if he can get the TAD TL-1101H (after all he is offering other TAD components for sale).
Plant 10: I do love those Heils. I wasn’t sure if they were going to be efficient enough to cross passively with the phl’s. Have you ever measured the spl/watt/meter? Guessing around 98db…. that’s why I was asking about the phl’s baffle step. Haven’t measured anything yet, still building the test boxes. Guess I could always triamp. No shortage of amps around my place.
Open baffle…. I do love the open baffle. Made several speakers with open baffle mids and they always sound far less boxy, more dynamic, transparent and natural. The phasey-ness is usually attributed (in my humble experience) to rear reflections from the top of the bass cabinet or the “wings” extending back. The wings also give it a bit of honk. I have a dipole bias since my main speakers are quad 57’s…but I also know awesome midrange when I hear it ;-).
There’s a guy named Magnetar who post on the high efficiency speaker asylum who used the 3451’s and esg1’s. He liked them (from memory) at 1.6 –1.8K with 24 db/octave and 900hz at 48 db/octave!
Andre told me the 3451 is double doped and has a QTC of .36 and a different surround (from memory).
Open baffle…. I do love the open baffle. Made several speakers with open baffle mids and they always sound far less boxy, more dynamic, transparent and natural. The phasey-ness is usually attributed (in my humble experience) to rear reflections from the top of the bass cabinet or the “wings” extending back. The wings also give it a bit of honk. I have a dipole bias since my main speakers are quad 57’s…but I also know awesome midrange when I hear it ;-).
There’s a guy named Magnetar who post on the high efficiency speaker asylum who used the 3451’s and esg1’s. He liked them (from memory) at 1.6 –1.8K with 24 db/octave and 900hz at 48 db/octave!
Andre told me the 3451 is double doped and has a QTC of .36 and a different surround (from memory).
If the higher QTS is correct then all the better for open baffle.
I was also aware of Magnetar's creations. The problem with the low 900 Hz cross point (even with the steep filter) is that the spectral decay turns to crap below 1 kHz.
Most of the transparency of the open baffle has nothing to do with late arival reflections (the phasey characteristic I was refering to). Instead its more about removing the air spring of an enclosure - particularly with these drivers that have substantial mass. (lighter mass drivers also benifit from reduced higher freq. reflections hiting the back of the cone.)
I was also aware of Magnetar's creations. The problem with the low 900 Hz cross point (even with the steep filter) is that the spectral decay turns to crap below 1 kHz.
Most of the transparency of the open baffle has nothing to do with late arival reflections (the phasey characteristic I was refering to). Instead its more about removing the air spring of an enclosure - particularly with these drivers that have substantial mass. (lighter mass drivers also benifit from reduced higher freq. reflections hiting the back of the cone.)
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