You haven't even tried to time align them yet. Big difference, right there! Really!
I agree that removing reflections can or may bring out remaining room flaws. But, some well timed reflections from the back pretty much cure that. And enhance the stage.
Look at your IR and look at mine. Planning was all that was needed to get me my results. Planning the room + speakers. 3 Damping panels total. Only one of them in sight. 2x 7 cm thick panels with fiberglass insulation and wool felt, about 2 cm from the wall and one 5 cm thick damping poster.
I have been fatigued at some points during a few of my many experiments. Mainly when I was trying really hard (too hard) to point out (or wanting to hear) differences to myself. But to really sink back into the music all you (or I) need to do is close your eyes, relax and let the music take you away. I love it, even with some fully doctored electronic mixes. The ones that work well on headphones work way better out in the room.
To mayhem13 I'd like to say, at which point is listening pulled out of any of this, just because we measure the signal... For instance, speaking for myself: all of my tonal balance adjustments are done by ear. The same goes for any processing decision. Compared to other EQ schemes I'm only feathering the response into shape. The more the room is taken out of the equation, the more "flat line" my preferred EQ target became. Suitable for a very wide variety of music. And yes, there are plenty of "You are there" tracks between them. Even some doctored material is quite fun to listen to this way.
One thing I had in mind for my corner arrays right from the beginning was to put them all the way back into the corners as much as possible. But in my case, the walls and cabinets did not fit perfectly flush. So, I had to build these deflector panels to get rid of some reflections where there was a gap between the baffle and wall. Since installing these, there was great improvement in the cleanliness of the impulse response. I also had to worry about the projector screen, which was creating a massive reflection. The deflector panels are just 1/8th inch masonite panels you can buy at HD or Lowe's. I should probably finalize the exercise by damping the panels and making it a more permanent solution. Right now, they're held in place by thumb tacks 
Of course, horns are resonant devices. There are bound to be some reflections. But the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and the pudding tastes pretty sweet. The sound is marvelous.
Of course, horns are resonant devices. There are bound to be some reflections. But the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and the pudding tastes pretty sweet. The sound is marvelous.
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One thing I had in mind for my corner arrays right from the beginning was to put them all the way back into the corners as much as possible. But in my case, the walls and cabinets did not fit perfectly flush. So, I had to build these deflector panels to get rid of some reflections where there was a gap between the baffle and wall. Since installing these, there was great improvement in the cleanliness of the impulse response. I also had to worry about the projector screen, which was creating a massive reflection. The deflector panels are just 1/8th inch masonite panels you can buy at HD or Lowe's. I should probably finalize the exercise by damping the panels and making it a more permanent solution. Right now, they're held in place by thumb tacks
Of course, horns are resonant devices. There are bound to be some reflections. But the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and the pudding tastes pretty sweet. The sound is marvelous.
tell me more about these deflector panels! close-up at driver side and wall side?
I assume this is horn-speak... translation as it relates to the "corner horn"?
Looking good ra7! I had often wondered what adding a "waveguide" like that would do for an array... Of coarse the corner was supposed to do the same but this shows it's important how the transition is done.
I had a picture saved for inspiration to do it like this:
(from BD Design)
But without the added horn.
I had a picture saved for inspiration to do it like this:
(from BD Design)
But without the added horn
.Attachments
This is a very interesting project. Any news since the last post? Have you got the line arrays sorted or did you just scrap the project dynomike?
Also a short question, I'm pondering on building corner line arrays for myself, but the problem is my room measures just 3130mm to 3700mm. Maximum listening distance from front wall would be just about 2,7 meters. Is this just begging for trouble with line arrays?
Also a short question, I'm pondering on building corner line arrays for myself, but the problem is my room measures just 3130mm to 3700mm. Maximum listening distance from front wall would be just about 2,7 meters. Is this just begging for trouble with line arrays?
Hi Mayuri,
No I haven't made any progress. There are a few things that need to happen for the project to proceed:
1. Floor to ceiling absorption surrounding the arrays (in the corners) in order to catch the extremely early reflections that are clouding things around 4kHz. (I posed about this before but still haven't dealt with it properly).
2. Even vertical distribution of absorption in the room. The image pulls up because the room is more reverberent at the top (due to normal furniture objects in the bottom half).
3. Properly integrated woofers. Infinite baffle built into the front wall would be ideal, but I can't do that. A very shallow but wide or tall enclosure could work with say, Dayton RS-225's (2-4 per side).
4. Full absorption on the back wall. Because it is a small room (like yours), the listening position is close to the back wall and the reflection there is a problem. Probably a heavy curtain with (ideally) rockwool / rigid fiberglas underneath.
Basically, I was surprised to find that they require more, not less, room treatment than conventional speakers. I also made a poor choice trying to economize on the drivers (vs. getting the TC7 or TC6Fx00), and if I were to do it again, I would use the TC9's like everyone else and therefore skip the separate woofer cabinets.
So yeah, basically a failed project. They are still mounted in my corners just because I don't know what else to do with them.
No I haven't made any progress. There are a few things that need to happen for the project to proceed:
1. Floor to ceiling absorption surrounding the arrays (in the corners) in order to catch the extremely early reflections that are clouding things around 4kHz. (I posed about this before but still haven't dealt with it properly).
2. Even vertical distribution of absorption in the room. The image pulls up because the room is more reverberent at the top (due to normal furniture objects in the bottom half).
3. Properly integrated woofers. Infinite baffle built into the front wall would be ideal, but I can't do that. A very shallow but wide or tall enclosure could work with say, Dayton RS-225's (2-4 per side).
4. Full absorption on the back wall. Because it is a small room (like yours), the listening position is close to the back wall and the reflection there is a problem. Probably a heavy curtain with (ideally) rockwool / rigid fiberglas underneath.
Basically, I was surprised to find that they require more, not less, room treatment than conventional speakers. I also made a poor choice trying to economize on the drivers (vs. getting the TC7 or TC6Fx00), and if I were to do it again, I would use the TC9's like everyone else and therefore skip the separate woofer cabinets.
So yeah, basically a failed project. They are still mounted in my corners just because I don't know what else to do with them.
HOM = higher order modes in horns Higher order modes on usual waveguides - Springer
Higher Order Modes
Low .. and Middle.. are my own word play (lower in frequency and multiplication)
One thing I had in mind for my corner arrays right from the beginning was to put them all the way back into the corners as much as possible. But in my case, the walls and cabinets did not fit perfectly flush. So, I had to build these deflector panels to get rid of some reflections where there was a gap between the baffle and wall. Since installing these, there was great improvement in the cleanliness of the impulse response. I also had to worry about the projector screen, which was creating a massive reflection. The deflector panels are just 1/8th inch masonite panels you can buy at HD or Lowe's. I should probably finalize the exercise by damping the panels and making it a more permanent solution. Right now, they're held in place by thumb tacks
Of course, horns are resonant devices. There are bound to be some reflections. But the proof is in the pudding, as they say, and the pudding tastes pretty sweet. The sound is marvelous.
What is ringing in your impulse response, and where (at what frequency)? That looks, um, bad. Can you post the uncorrected frequency response?
What is ringing in your impulse response, and where (at what frequency)? That looks, um, bad. Can you post the uncorrected frequency response?
Hi Charlie,
Actually no, it is not bad. It is very good. Fantastic, in fact. Impulse response can be misleading. For starters, that is a line array. Each driver contributes to the response and the amplitude at a given frequency is a function of the driver distance from the listening axis. If a driver is exactly one wavelength away, the response adds in perfect summation (and so on). So, while the impulse response appears like a train of ringing impulses, it does not generate a traditional peaky frequency response. If you observe carefully, the first pulse in the IR is actually nearly like a perfect dirac pulse. And that is measured at the listening position. More in my line array thread here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/284371-corner-floor-ceiling-line-array-using-vifa-tc9.html
Post there if you want to discuss further. All I can say is that I'm not building new speakers looking for better sound (I am building them because its fun). And I haven't touched the EQ since February, partly for a lack of time but partly because it sounds so bloody good. I am just enjoying the music.
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