Hey Scott!
That Faital Pro looks nice! I wish it was a bit larger, though. I'm having a hard time giving in into 6.5" drivers, and now you want to sell me a 5"!
What about the PHL makes it look "SO GOOD"? BTW, PHL doesn't publish curves for their drivers. Some independent measurements are available, and from there PHL drivers tend to look rather good in terms of frequency response and directivity, although some display wiggles in their impedance curves. I have not seen charts for this particular driver.
I am intrigued by your Edgar midrange waveguide comment. I found a Speaker Builder article by Bruce Edgar where he introduces his horn. Need to read it. Could you point me to some applications, pictures, or something where I can get a feel of what we are talking about? Considering the size of the TPL-150H, one significant concern of mine is center-to-center distance to the midrange driver. It is a concern even with 6.5" drivers...so a waveguide makes me wonder even more. But I am not familiar with these. Intriguing!
"Music is a dish best served with slam!"
The PHL unit has a higher BL than it does a moving mass. This tells me it will be very dynamic, at the cost of a rising response.
WARNING The more you learn about this hobby, the more difficult it might become to make decisions. I happen to be a "4-way" guy, but, I'd guess guys like me tend to be in the minority. There is a certain "charm"
(at least for me) in a classic 3-way, but not so much for a 2 -way.
Here's a link: (go to the downloads section, and you will see the Edgar article. )
Volvotreter Homepage
Hey Scott!
That Faital Pro looks nice! I wish it was a bit larger, though. I'm having a hard time giving in into 6.5" drivers, and now you want to sell me a 5"!
What about the PHL makes it look "SO GOOD"? BTW, PHL doesn't publish curves for their drivers. Some independent measurements are available, and from there PHL drivers tend to look rather good in terms of frequency response and directivity, although some display wiggles in their impedance curves. I have not seen charts for this particular driver.
I am intrigued by your Edgar midrange waveguide comment. I found a Speaker Builder article by Bruce Edgar where he introduces his horn. Need to read it. Could you point me to some applications, pictures, or something where I can get a feel of what we are talking about? Considering the size of the TPL-150H, one significant concern of mine is center-to-center distance to the midrange driver. It is a concern even with 6.5" drivers...so a waveguide makes me wonder even more. But I am not familiar with these. Intriguing!
The PHL unit has a higher BL than it does a moving mass. This tells me it will be very dynamic, at the cost of a rising response.
WARNING
The more you learn about this hobby, the more difficult it might become to make decisions. I happen to be a "4-way" guy, but, I'd guess guys like me tend to be in the minority. There is a certain "charm" (at least for me) in a classic 3-way, but not so much for a 2 -way.
Here's a link: (go to the downloads section, and you will see the Edgar article. )
Volvotreter Homepage
Hello Eldam,
For quite a while I did just what you proposed near the end of your post- 2@5 inch 500-5K under a similar type tweeter. It was actually pretty good, but when I tried to drop the range down from 500 to 250, the twin 5's lost their grip. They just couldn't move enough air to keep up. A single 6 inch is fine down to 400 Hz, but a single 5 inch would have to be horn loaded. Twin 5's should be okay to 400, but definitely not 250. Wavelengths start getting really big below 500.
Hi the other Scott (I mean the L not the G... as I saw you already exchanged like that... funny !)
On the paper it's look good, although the PHL Audio brand seems to have an odd way to size their drivers: Ultimate (just one in the 6" size) ; Very high sounding; High sounding...qualities... and the other ones !). Well you are right, I'm like you more lurking on the T/S specs !
You can see the spec are not leasured on an IE bafle but in the best cabinet the driver specs allow ! So you can T/S parameters have to be understood in relation to the load and it's writed on the datasheets ! (short horn loaded, sealed, vented : it is writed !)
The curves are not showed because of that and also because like a many Audax ,the drivers beams rapidly (and it doesn't mean they are bad !). And often when we have an IE bafle measurement we can see steps on the curves : again it doesn't mean they are bad drivers as they are designed for PA world ! But we know the man behind this brand is an ancient design office director of Audax (so, not bad !)... He believes few can understand and extrapolate an IE bafle parameters ! (whe should give him the good idea to give measurements and T/S according the load... even if we don't want to cop with the given load ! Hey I want a sealed infinite bafle cabinet with a 0.15 Qts driver myself ! could I get it wrong with a too damped sound ! )
Yes, I believe you undersyand my purpose : the low mid needs to move some air ... but with transcient (it's not just about the polar pattern here : note here it's the simple way I explain this with a poor understanding): a 15" but in some vented Onken could give a too heavy sound in the voice range (we talk about tonal balance... some says it's a question of polar patern, I don't know, I just follow my listenings expériences) : 5" and 6", even 8" could be too light Under Something bellow what you quoted, that's why the two sizes 10" and 12" can be according to me in a home listening room a good bet, but hard to acheive (a lot of set up in everyone room surely !)
Again, I like very much the Angeloitacare input, like some did before (Stig, Dutch magazine) about such nervous 12" (made for vented PA... or 1/4 wave load maybe). How to go with a 3 way design with such exotic 12" is a challenge (certainly too much for a first design like I want... but again : the low medium, mid-bass, what ever you call the 80/100 hZ aera to around 800/1000 is Something important to me.... I don't understand the interactions with the rooms and cabinet though !).
Some posts and thread like the one by xrk971 let me think than a 4" to 6" driver in full range can be a good bet with a more classic XO around 300 hZ because the close walls, etc. But I'm really doubt of a sound coherence between a 12" ultra damped and a 4" to 6" above with a duller damping (BL, Le, Qes, Qts) : my simple understanding !
Polar patern says us to go with little cones rapidly, but transcient says to us : bigger cones to move faster (if electrical damping and electronics -dac included- allow it) : I don't know where the best trade off are, especially where it's hard to deal with : bafle step, rooms mods ! I'm not sure we should start from the tweeter to design but the main important funddamentals : around 50 hz to 1200/1500 Hz with acoustical jazz/classic/voice range ! Atr least this is my too simple holistic way to see it ! I believe from my hearings most of the speakers are dulls and fat in the low... and that the 3D fame is trying (not for all) to hide it !
On the paper it's look good, although the PHL Audio brand seems to have an odd way to size their drivers
: Ultimate (just one in the 6" size) ; Very high sounding; High sounding...qualities... and the other ones !). Well you are right, I'm like you more lurking on the T/S specs !You can see the spec are not leasured on an IE bafle but in the best cabinet the driver specs allow ! So you can T/S parameters have to be understood in relation to the load and it's writed on the datasheets ! (short horn loaded, sealed, vented : it is writed !)
The curves are not showed because of that and also because like a many Audax ,the drivers beams rapidly (and it doesn't mean they are bad !). And often when we have an IE bafle measurement we can see steps on the curves : again it doesn't mean they are bad drivers as they are designed for PA world ! But we know the man behind this brand is an ancient design office director of Audax (so, not bad !)... He believes few can understand and extrapolate an IE bafle parameters ! (whe should give him the good idea to give measurements and T/S according the load... even if we don't want to cop with the given load ! Hey I want a sealed infinite bafle cabinet with a 0.15 Qts driver myself
! could I get it wrong with a too damped sound ! )Yes, I believe you undersyand my purpose : the low mid needs to move some air ... but with transcient (it's not just about the polar pattern here : note here it's the simple way I explain this with a poor understanding): a 15" but in some vented Onken could give a too heavy sound in the voice range (we talk about tonal balance... some says it's a question of polar patern, I don't know, I just follow my listenings expériences) : 5" and 6", even 8" could be too light Under Something bellow what you quoted, that's why the two sizes 10" and 12" can be according to me in a home listening room a good bet, but hard to acheive (a lot of set up in everyone room surely !)
Again, I like very much the Angeloitacare input, like some did before (Stig, Dutch magazine) about such nervous 12" (made for vented PA... or 1/4 wave load maybe). How to go with a 3 way design with such exotic 12" is a challenge (certainly too much for a first design like I want... but again : the low medium, mid-bass, what ever you call the 80/100 hZ aera to around 800/1000 is Something important to me.... I don't understand the interactions with the rooms and cabinet though !).
Some posts and thread like the one by xrk971 let me think than a 4" to 6" driver in full range can be a good bet with a more classic XO around 300 hZ because the close walls, etc. But I'm really doubt of a sound coherence between a 12" ultra damped and a 4" to 6" above with a duller damping (BL, Le, Qes, Qts) : my simple understanding !
Polar patern says us to go with little cones rapidly, but transcient says to us : bigger cones to move faster (if electrical damping and electronics -dac included- allow it) : I don't know where the best trade off are, especially where it's hard to deal with : bafle step, rooms mods ! I'm not sure we should start from the tweeter to design but the main important funddamentals : around 50 hz to 1200/1500 Hz with acoustical jazz/classic/voice range ! Atr least this is my too simple holistic way to see it ! I believe from my hearings most of the speakers are dulls and fat in the low... and that the 3D fame is trying (not for all) to hide it !
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And when they are not dull : the tonal balance in this range is not accurate : voices and intruments lack of authority, weight (which must stays light : you know what I mean). So th etrade offs are difficults : I don't believe you can play symphonic with a 8", ok you can play play 3D... but the level of spl goes with a short dynamic !Choose your friend : I chose it ! (and I doubt most of the 15" if not vented are agile enough... maybe bthey are but I have to hear one to believe it... just a W Onken or a VOTT convinced me... but hey I'm talking about living rooms... not studios !)
Some understood it making some bass and mid-bass aray to have both : transcient and weight (mooved air !) ! Is it not hard to set up a good tonal balance : yes it is, and I try to do it even with working on the grounding of my dac pcb and supplys ! Don't know why so much people are obnubilate about the 3D : it seems the higher FR was choosed and the low gived up... but some newer inputs (Gedllee, new Hifi points of views with JBL, etc)
I really don't know, that's just my feeling ! And I understand also why Lewinski want to go to 4 ways ! Myself I'm tempted to it with some expensive stuff like Rytmik standalone subwoofer enclosures .. to go 3 ways above ! (could it be passive or active... but the standalone woof has the advantage to be moved into the listening rooms )
! (and I doubt most of the 15" if not vented are agile enough... maybe bthey are but I have to hear one to believe it... just a W Onken or a VOTT convinced me... but hey I'm talking about living rooms... not studios !)Some understood it making some bass and mid-bass aray to have both : transcient and weight (mooved air !) ! Is it not hard to set up a good tonal balance : yes it is, and I try to do it even with working on the grounding of my dac pcb and supplys ! Don't know why so much people are obnubilate about the 3D : it seems the higher FR was choosed and the low gived up... but some newer inputs (Gedllee, new Hifi points of views with JBL, etc)
I really don't know, that's just my feeling ! And I understand also why Lewinski want to go to 4 ways ! Myself I'm tempted to it with some expensive stuff like Rytmik standalone subwoofer enclosures .. to go 3 ways above ! (could it be passive or active... but the standalone woof has the advantage to be moved into the listening rooms
)
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The PHL unit has a higher BL than it does a moving mass. This tells me it will be very dynamic, at the cost of a rising response.
WARNING
(at least for me) in a classic 3-way, but not so much for a 2 -way.
Here's a link: (go to the downloads section, and you will see the Edgar article. )
Volvotreter Homepage
Hey Scott.
I went through the Edgar Midrange Horn article. Very interesting. As I'm not familiar with horn jargon, some aspects escape to me. Hopefully you can help!
Edgar summarizes at the end:"The route I have shown for a good horn design is to choose a rectangular mouth (2:1 aspect ratio), or a square mouth, and a mouth size frequency cutoff equal to the flare rate frequency. Deviations from this philosophy will introduce peaks in the response."
Rectangular, 2:1 aspect ratio is fine. Frequency range above 400Hz seems ok. I would love it for 350Hz and up, but could experiment. Close enough.
The depth of the horn seems to be about 6", which seems ok for me.
But what is mouth size frequency cut off and what is flare rate frequency?
Not sure how high such horn would be for a 6.5" driver. Since center-to-center spacing to the TPL is a concern of mine, I worry the midrange horn would take a lot of additional height.
Thanks for pointing me to this article!
Hi Lewinski,
There is also this site you should like by Carpenter member and which is an usefull combo with Volvotreter 's site : inlowsound.com
I would like such 130 hz to 1k hz horn, but integration in the living room is more difficult ! The plus is you don't need an Hypex amp to feed it !
Subwoofer can be a chalenge to do as well ! (huge 15"/18" with low FS !), I will look at twice on what you will choose for bass, I don't know what to chose either !
There is also this site you should like by Carpenter member and which is an usefull combo with Volvotreter 's site : inlowsound.com
I would like such 130 hz to 1k hz horn, but integration in the living room is more difficult ! The plus is you don't need an Hypex amp to feed it !
Subwoofer can be a chalenge to do as well ! (huge 15"/18" with low FS !), I will look at twice on what you will choose for bass, I don't know what to chose either !
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