The AE TD10M is clean past 2k...allowing plenty of flexibility when crossing over to the TPL150H. I designed a MTM using the 12M and TPL150H, crossing 2nd order @ 1800hz. It sounded very nice. Crossing any lower resulted in the ribbon sounding strained. Fyi, removing the back cover and building a larger, well damped rear chamber resulted in deeper extension and flatter response.
WinISD for common Midbass considered for TPL150H
F3 frequency and sealed box volume:
Orange TD12M 113Hz 0.725cuft
Blue TD10M 129Hz 0.263cuft
Yellow 12NMB420 141Hz 0.711cuft
Green 12P80FE 183Hz 0.205cuft
Purple 12P80Nd 226Hz 0.158cuft
WinISD absolute SPL/w can be optimistic, but relative efficiency is useful.
The Beyma 12P80Nd has 10g lower Mms and about 3db higher SPL/watt than 12P80Fe. The sealed box F3 for the Nd is about 43Hz higher. It would be worth the effort to model each in your design before purchase.
A few experts echo FACE's technical information on the TPL150 and TPL150H: "removing the back cover and building a larger, well damped rear chamber resulted in deeper extension and flatter response. "
F3 frequency and sealed box volume:
Orange TD12M 113Hz 0.725cuft
Blue TD10M 129Hz 0.263cuft
Yellow 12NMB420 141Hz 0.711cuft
Green 12P80FE 183Hz 0.205cuft
Purple 12P80Nd 226Hz 0.158cuft
WinISD absolute SPL/w can be optimistic, but relative efficiency is useful.
The Beyma 12P80Nd has 10g lower Mms and about 3db higher SPL/watt than 12P80Fe. The sealed box F3 for the Nd is about 43Hz higher. It would be worth the effort to model each in your design before purchase.
A few experts echo FACE's technical information on the TPL150 and TPL150H: "removing the back cover and building a larger, well damped rear chamber resulted in deeper extension and flatter response. "
Attachments
Hello Face.
I did notice the midbass drivers I'm considering, including the TD10M, play clean beyond 2kHz.
The point raised earlier in this thread was directivity mismatches, but you have a good point. Running the math shows a "typical" 10" driver would have 67° dispersion at 1.8kHz. That's close enough to the TPL-150H 80° dispersion.
You don't happen to have polar dispersion charts for the TD10M, do you?
What shortcomings, if any, did you experience with such setup?
Yes, I saw several comments along these lines. Someone said "1 to 2 liter chamber". How large was the one you used?
Did you build it "deep", meaning the minimum height and width to fit the TPL dimensions, and depth to achieve the desired volume? I recall someone, maybe Stig, recommending such a design, with significant, loose, damping towards the end of the chamber to reduce reflected sound.
Thank you for taking the time to do that!
I'm more familiar with UniBox, so I ran the same, except for the 12NMB420 since I don't have it modelled. I used a sealed box, with minimal fill, minimal leaks, 80W power for all the drivers, and used the box volumes you listed. Interestingly F3 varies from right at the same value to about 10Hz off, but Qtc shows as 0.66.
If I'm reading your graphs correctly, the Beymas and TD10M will have a harder time reaching 80Hz.
From UniBox modelling I see:
TD10M reaching 105dB @ 80Hz and 113db above 200Hz, at 80W.
12P80Fe: 103dB @80Hz, 117dB above 250Hz, at 80W.
12P80Nd: 100dB @ 80Hz, 118dB above 300Hz.
TD12M: 109dB at 80Hz, 115dB above 200Hz.
Now the 12P80Nd doesn't look as good since it will deliver at least 3dB less at the xo point at a given power.
The TDs look best from this point of view, achieving high SPLs at 80Hz.
The 12P80Fe deserves some discussion, I think. SPL at 80Hz is not bad, and max SPL is good. Since I will be using digital room correction and linearizing the drivers through software it seems this could be a viable option.
It might not have as much definition as the Nd given the same Bl, almost the same motor strength and 10g difference in Mms, but has more than double the more motor strength of the TD12M and the same Mms/Bl ratio.
How convenient would it be to be able to listen to a TD12M and 12P80Fe side by side!
Beyma 12P80Fe Polar Plot
There has been discussion on building a custom horn for the TPL-150 to match the 12P80Nd polar at 1600Hz. ?? Why pay $$ for the TPL-150 is you can't use it's dynamics.
Lambda TD12M polar in earlier post looks like a closer match to Beyma 80H x 30V Horn. You can email Acoustic Elegance to check delivery times for you decision matrix.
There has been discussion on building a custom horn for the TPL-150 to match the 12P80Nd polar at 1600Hz. ?? Why pay $$ for the TPL-150 is you can't use it's dynamics.
Lambda TD12M polar in earlier post looks like a closer match to Beyma 80H x 30V Horn. You can email Acoustic Elegance to check delivery times for you decision matrix.
Attachments
Putting the cart before the horse
Hello,
I only wanted to chime in to say that deciding on a 4-way system and then considering how to go about it is a bit backwards and counter-productive. If the LF requirements are relieved by the Rythmik subwoofers, then 2 x 10" or 2 x 12" quality woofers with a low-inductance motor should make a 3-way perfectly reasonable - and without compromising sound quality whatsoever.
Using a sealed enclosure for the woofers can also enable a very predictable rolloff which will make crossing over to the subwoofers easier & better. I'd run the subwoofers in mono, by the way, as it'll help with room modes. I happen to own a Rythmik Audio subwoofer - and due to the low-distortion nature of it, the sub will not produce much harmonic distortion outside of its passband - a plus for the desired 90 Hz. low-pass frequency. This would make the speakers a 2.5 way, which avoids one crossover filter (a good thing) as well as blends the LF rolloff (via mechanical high-pass of the air-spring of the sealed enclosure) of the woofers with the low-pass filter of the Rythmik subwoofers.
2 x 10" or 2 x 12" per side should easily be able to reach down that low, without compromising dynamic range or approaching xmax. I'd also second foregoing the Apollo option (even if you're planning on one 12" per side). The AE drivers are such high quality that needing to go beyond their standard product is more likely the exception than the rule.
You haven't mentioned a crossover - everyone seems to have great luck with MiniDSP, and the flexibility makes it VERY easy to prototype different crossover configurations - again, without sacrificing sound quality (once gains are appropriately set).
Everyone's advice in this thread about matching polar patterns (directivity) is on point - it's wonderful to have a forum where knowledge is shared instead of hoarded.
Just my $0.02 - enjoy the ride!
-Tal
Hello,
I only wanted to chime in to say that deciding on a 4-way system and then considering how to go about it is a bit backwards and counter-productive. If the LF requirements are relieved by the Rythmik subwoofers, then 2 x 10" or 2 x 12" quality woofers with a low-inductance motor should make a 3-way perfectly reasonable - and without compromising sound quality whatsoever.
Using a sealed enclosure for the woofers can also enable a very predictable rolloff which will make crossing over to the subwoofers easier & better. I'd run the subwoofers in mono, by the way, as it'll help with room modes. I happen to own a Rythmik Audio subwoofer - and due to the low-distortion nature of it, the sub will not produce much harmonic distortion outside of its passband - a plus for the desired 90 Hz. low-pass frequency. This would make the speakers a 2.5 way, which avoids one crossover filter (a good thing) as well as blends the LF rolloff (via mechanical high-pass of the air-spring of the sealed enclosure) of the woofers with the low-pass filter of the Rythmik subwoofers.
2 x 10" or 2 x 12" per side should easily be able to reach down that low, without compromising dynamic range or approaching xmax. I'd also second foregoing the Apollo option (even if you're planning on one 12" per side). The AE drivers are such high quality that needing to go beyond their standard product is more likely the exception than the rule.
You haven't mentioned a crossover - everyone seems to have great luck with MiniDSP, and the flexibility makes it VERY easy to prototype different crossover configurations - again, without sacrificing sound quality (once gains are appropriately set).
Everyone's advice in this thread about matching polar patterns (directivity) is on point - it's wonderful to have a forum where knowledge is shared instead of hoarded.
Just my $0.02 - enjoy the ride!
-Tal
linearity
A 4 way is preferred because a 12 inch, or 10 inch can not usually run high enough to meet the required crossover point to the Beyma TPL without undue stress. Cone cry will always be the enemy. I know, I tried it.
A 4 way is preferred because a 12 inch, or 10 inch can not usually run high enough to meet the required crossover point to the Beyma TPL without undue stress. Cone cry will always be the enemy. I know, I tried it.
Hello Tal. Thanks for chiming in!
I've been doing a fair amount of learning in the past weeks and decided to stick to a 4-way. Midbass will be either 2x10" (Beyma 10G40) or 1x12" (Eminence 4012HO), tweeter will be a TPL-150H, and I'm looking for a midrange in between. I was about to start a new thread for it.
Yes, I'm aware of MiniDSP and its flexibility. My plan includes Acourate (software) coupled with a multichannel DAC, which provides even more degrees of freedom. It allows for time alignment (I believe MiniDSP doesn't offer that), and driver linearization. Plus room correction. And all sorts of slopes/shapes.
Running the Rythmiks in mono is indeed in the cards. Will need to listen to the alternatives. Until recently I had them in mono and set up along the Geddes guidelines and had good results. Recently I changed the setup to use the internal XO in each sub and relieve the tube amp from attempting to reproduce below 80Hz. The internal Rythmik XO is not high-end, but relieving the amp and speakers from working below 80Hz has more than compensated for that.
Actually, adding one or two additional subs is not off the table either, but will decide on that after the speakers are completed. That means many months from now
Hello Face.
Do you happen to know where I can find measurements for a TD10M? I'm most interested in directivity behavior in the 2-3kHz (to cross it over to a TPL-150H around 2.5kHz)
I know Vapor Audio's Arcus uses this combination in a 2-way, but they xo at 1050Hz, which seems to be way too low from the comments seen around Diyaudio. Plus, mine is a 4-way design.
Thank you!
Hi Lewinski,
Do you know if the Winsd simulations is with baflestep compensation or not ?
On an IE bafle, the 12P80nd is around 95 dB between 200 hz and .... 2000, on axis of course !
What can be the usefull F3 frequencies in the low end without EQ in a sealed enclosure according to you ? I don't find what Angelo found with Edge soft...
What is your plan to avoid a resistor to lower the efficienty of the TPL150 ?
the horizontal expansion of the horn in the H model seems shy for an home environment (80° is a little short ?) ?
I try to find a 3 ways solution only..., but the 18sounds drivers in 8 or 12... I don't find any solution on the paper ! Although I don't sketch as Linsource does !
Any good link for sketching a driver in an enclosure ? (free soft I mean)
The more I think to the TPL with my poor understanding and without a diy horn, the more I believe than 2000 hZ is a risky bet, Under it is worse ! And I ask myself if there is any interrest to use it upon 5K hZ with a 5" Full range (two in fact to cop the sensivity) between it and a 12" at 800 Hz to around 1000 hz (12P80 ndv2 or FEv2) ?
thanks in advance
Eldam
Do you know if the Winsd simulations is with baflestep compensation or not ?
On an IE bafle, the 12P80nd is around 95 dB between 200 hz and .... 2000, on axis of course !
What can be the usefull F3 frequencies in the low end without EQ in a sealed enclosure according to you ? I don't find what Angelo found with Edge soft...
What is your plan to avoid a resistor to lower the efficienty of the TPL150 ?
the horizontal expansion of the horn in the H model seems shy for an home environment (80° is a little short ?) ?
I try to find a 3 ways solution only..., but the 18sounds drivers in 8 or 12... I don't find any solution on the paper ! Although I don't sketch as Linsource does !
Any good link for sketching a driver in an enclosure ? (free soft I mean)
The more I think to the TPL with my poor understanding and without a diy horn, the more I believe than 2000 hZ is a risky bet, Under it is worse ! And I ask myself if there is any interrest to use it upon 5K hZ with a 5" Full range (two in fact to cop the sensivity) between it and a 12" at 800 Hz to around 1000 hz (12P80 ndv2 or FEv2) ?
thanks in advance
Eldam
Thank you.
BTW, last night doing a fair amount of reading on this I came across these measurements, see post #126: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/132884-10-mtm-neopro5i-ribbon-build-thread-13.html
Do those measurements look like yours? If so, no need to look around further.
I was surprised to see about -5dB at 40degrees at 2000Hz, and also about the big peak at 2500Hz. From the comments I had seen before I thought the TD10M would perform rather smoothly until 3kHz and display a narrower dispersion. So many comments about the curvilinear cone profile!
I was hoping it would be a great candidate to cross over to a TPL-150H at 2500Hz, but it now doesn't look that great. Maybe at 2000Hz and trade off a bit of a dispersion discontinuity. Or maybe a TD8M, but lack of measurements and high price is a risky proposition.
So much for calculations. What has been your experience with this driver?
Thank you!
Eldam,
Let me have a disclaimer upfront so you know who you are exchanging with. I'm new to building speakers, very new. I'm an engineer, though, been reading a lot about the subject and have a long history of DIY at multiple stuff, and a good history with hi-fi. So I have a grasp on a number of things, but I'm no speaker expert. Internet fora facilitate anyone portray him/herself as experts...many aren't.
Having said that:
I don't know for fact as I don't usually use that software, but I believe it doesn't. Look for Jeff Bagby's Diffraction Simulator for baffle step response.
Angelo is indeed experienced. Yet I believe his design is following a belief that less crossovers are better. Some experts agree, some don't. In my calculations the 12P80Nd has an F3 of 258Hz in a sealed box with Qtc=0.707. Too high an F3, in my view, for a woofer. Then the 12P80Nd performs great as a midrange, but has the directivity issues all large drivers display as frequency goes up. So I decided not to use it in my design.
A question worth asking is how important to sound is dispersion smoothness? Honestly, I don't know. Again, some experts say it's critical, others say it's overrated. I'm trying to keep it smooth.
I won't have one. Don't need it. Mine will be an active 4-way, so sensitivity mismatches are not as critical as with passive xo.
Again, experts disagree on this one. Directivity seems to be critical to some, and I'm choosing to follow that credo. 80degree is not bad in a small room: if you place them near a corner and towards the inside then dispersion stays within the 90degrees of the walls, minimizing reflections on side walls. Not bad. It is also easier to match dispersion with larger drivers, like 6.5" at 2200Hz. Without the waveguide you would need a small midrange to match dispersion.
I'm afraid I'm not of much help there. I find almost all 3-ways a compromise of some sort. If I were to do a 3-way, though, Angelo's would be in my short list, the compromise being on dispersion mismatch and using the TPL down lower than where it seems to work most comfortably.
Not sure what you mean by sketching software. Drawing? Autocad. I use Excel for most of my things.
I've come to the conclusion I should cross over the TPL-150H ideally at 2500Hz, and maybe down to 2000Hz. Angelo goes down to 1600 and he's happy, though. Many others do the same.
The more I look into this, the more I realize a 6.5" midrange has ideal dispersion for the match at 2500Hz. Smaller midranges have smaller impact, so I'm also considering 8". See my question above regarding TD10M in an attempt to find a good 10", but it's not looking promising right now.
Below that I plan to use two Beyma 10G40 per side, working from 80 to 350/400Hz. These are woofers, not midranges, and will be used as midbass woofers in sealed boxes. I go for two because calculations suggest two drivers allow to better compensate for baffle step.
Finally a subwoofer per side, in a sealed box, to do up to 80Hz.
Sorry for the long answer. I hope it helps,
Let me have a disclaimer upfront so you know who you are exchanging with. I'm new to building speakers, very new. I'm an engineer, though, been reading a lot about the subject and have a long history of DIY at multiple stuff, and a good history with hi-fi. So I have a grasp on a number of things, but I'm no speaker expert. Internet fora facilitate anyone portray him/herself as experts...many aren't.
Having said that:
I don't know for fact as I don't usually use that software, but I believe it doesn't. Look for Jeff Bagby's Diffraction Simulator for baffle step response.
Angelo is indeed experienced. Yet I believe his design is following a belief that less crossovers are better. Some experts agree, some don't. In my calculations the 12P80Nd has an F3 of 258Hz in a sealed box with Qtc=0.707. Too high an F3, in my view, for a woofer. Then the 12P80Nd performs great as a midrange, but has the directivity issues all large drivers display as frequency goes up. So I decided not to use it in my design.
A question worth asking is how important to sound is dispersion smoothness? Honestly, I don't know. Again, some experts say it's critical, others say it's overrated. I'm trying to keep it smooth.
I won't have one. Don't need it. Mine will be an active 4-way, so sensitivity mismatches are not as critical as with passive xo.
Again, experts disagree on this one. Directivity seems to be critical to some, and I'm choosing to follow that credo. 80degree is not bad in a small room: if you place them near a corner and towards the inside then dispersion stays within the 90degrees of the walls, minimizing reflections on side walls. Not bad. It is also easier to match dispersion with larger drivers, like 6.5" at 2200Hz. Without the waveguide you would need a small midrange to match dispersion.
I'm afraid I'm not of much help there. I find almost all 3-ways a compromise of some sort. If I were to do a 3-way, though, Angelo's would be in my short list, the compromise being on dispersion mismatch and using the TPL down lower than where it seems to work most comfortably.
Not sure what you mean by sketching software. Drawing? Autocad. I use Excel for most of my things.
I've come to the conclusion I should cross over the TPL-150H ideally at 2500Hz, and maybe down to 2000Hz. Angelo goes down to 1600 and he's happy, though. Many others do the same.
The more I look into this, the more I realize a 6.5" midrange has ideal dispersion for the match at 2500Hz. Smaller midranges have smaller impact, so I'm also considering 8". See my question above regarding TD10M in an attempt to find a good 10", but it's not looking promising right now.
Below that I plan to use two Beyma 10G40 per side, working from 80 to 350/400Hz. These are woofers, not midranges, and will be used as midbass woofers in sealed boxes. I go for two because calculations suggest two drivers allow to better compensate for baffle step.
Finally a subwoofer per side, in a sealed box, to do up to 80Hz.
Sorry for the long answer. I hope it helps,
Hi Lewinski, I quoted to what I answer bellow, thank you for your input about this design... yes it helps !
Firstly, I'm just an enthusiast trying to find an acceptable trade off to beginn a DIY speaker; No knowledge, just experience of listenings and I know what I like in a speaker and what I dislike !
My main concern is the tonal balance : first place ! Second is transcient (it comes with the tonal balance in fact) . 3D stage is not a priority ! If there is air and 3 D but a bass sounds like an acoustic guitar, it's a no go for me!
That's why I was interrested by Angelo's inputs about the mid-bass. And yes i hesitate myself to go with the stock TPL150(H) below 1800-2000 Hz. I could try bu the price of two TPL150 is too high for my money to make an error here (I mean XO it at 1600 hz because I could dislike it in theory ! )
I sketched/simulated the Mid-bass he uses and find the same thing like you find ! So I presume the straight 50 hz Angelo has is mostly a luck with the load it has (90 l) and the room mods ! So not easy to follow without risks!
I talk about Bafle step because I want to beginn with passive filter just helped by a Minidsp for the design phase to not extract all the copper of the mines by buying too much coils ! So If - 6 Db bafle step with this 12P80nd mid which is mostly around 95/96 db in the low mids below 800 hz: all the high sensivity mids drivers above and AMT are certainly a no go if the low end of the 12" is at 90 dB (but here I have to understand how is working the room or a floor near the driver ! )
...but if I go active for the 12"... but I won't as I want transcient in the low medium and life without boomy sound (if my room allows that) so ~80 hz to 800 could be a good trade off for my goal with this 12" driver in a sealed enclosure despite the low qts (I don't like most of the vented cabinet sounds).
From my readings, the TPL150 deserves minimum 2000 Hz but again some seems happy to cross this AMT below its first sounding problems : StigErik, Angeloitacare, etc !
For my tastes I'm not sure the 10g40 could be dynamic and fast enough, but certainly bassy enough... mostly a question of taste here (ang again rooms mode don't help certainly to find an acceptable result without EQ !
So my final understanding is it's certainly hard to find drivers below the TPL150H without active EQ/filter and multiple amps ! But apply a two expensive and ugly WWMMTMMWW with passive to avoid a cork resistor before the AMT and match the 101 dB sensivity !
This is surely a too simple understanding from me...
If a 4 way, I would like to try the Aino Gradient from Juhazi : it seems full of good trade offs according my tastes (but it's possible I should prefer a low medium with a sealed cabinet... despite the box sound for keeping a high transcient without crossover in the 80/100 Hz to 800/1000 range !
that's why I experienced from some listenings, but without saying all is writed defintly about that !
Thanks for your educated guess above.
regards,
Eldam
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I haven't yet tried the 10G40 so can't comment about direct experience. However, I have reason to believe it's not going to be a slow driver:
- Here's a design using TPL-150H and dual 10G40: Hornet EVO As you can see they are using the 10G40 as midranges. I wouldn't go THAT far, but suggests these aren't slow drivers.
- Here's a paper making the case for Le as a good indicator of woofer speed. The 10G40 has Le of 0.6mH vs 12P80Nd at 1.2mH. Even the 10MI100 has 0.9mH. Not bad!
- FWIW, some folks around here use Mms/Bl as a proxy for speed. I've plotted Mms/Bl vs Le for about 10 midbass drivers in my short list and the correlation between Mms/Bl and Le was rather high. 10G40 has Mms/Bl of 3.1 vs 2.4 for 12P80Nd. Again, not bad.
- In my design, the dual 10G40 will be required to move up to 20% of Xmax to deliver 105dB SPL at 80Hz, the max excursion that will be required from them. Well within linearity and keeping distortion very low.
One midrange I like a lot is B&W FST. I have it in my B&W 804S speakers, and you can see measurements at Zaph Audio. Outstanding midrange performance. It's a 6.5" driver, so dispersion is a great match with TPL-150H at 2500Hz. The flip side of the coin: at 6.5", I worry the dynamics won't be on par with the dynamics the TPL is known for. In the US it's called a catch 20-20, I think!
Some PHL 6.5" drivers look good too, but is difficult to come across measurements. Some PHL 8" seem to be good too, and I speculate the dynamics would be better than that from a 6.5"...at the expense of not as good dispersion match.
This is why I was asking about the TD10M. It has been said about the TD12M that it's curvilinear cone allows it to defer beaming until higher up than usual in the frequency range. Unfortunately this doesn't seem to hold for the TD10M. Maybe for the TD8M? Maybe, but how much better than a PHL 8" would it be? Hence I keep thinking through
Can we buy the FST mid from B&W without swaping with a breaked one ?
TD speakers are hard to source here without high customs taxes !
For the fun, have a look on the 20 TK 8R from Davis here in the middle of the page http://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.com/HpDavis.php , never see distorsion measurement or the spl curve either !
Ah, in my mind I was talking about the actual (not of the shelves of the shops in France yet !) 12P80nd/v2 with no break up after 2 k hZ (easy for the driver above it); 0.7 mH Qts & Qes : 0.15 (my thought is we need mostly transcient in the foundamentals ,even if we need it in the high end for the feeling of subjective transcient in the low end - at least this is my simple understanding- )
But in the simulation we made and that Linsources showed in a sealed cabinet with rol off around 220 hz (not far from the bafle step with a 40/45 cm width bafle, I just don't understand how (without EQ), Angeloitacare can go to 50 Hz ?! I should re read the thread, after all maybe he EQ with a soft from a pc !
Ah, also what i find in an other thread if you want to match the efficienty of the tpl150 in Horn config : http://oem.ciare.com/en/297/349/prodotti.php , ok the Qes is not sexy , but at least it must have some microdynamic with a Xmax at 0.25 mm ; the inductance is 0.23 mH !
Elswhere, two members advises but not specialyy for this AMT : new 6MBX44 coming soon sensitivity 98dB
website: B&C Speakers
pdf: http://www.bcspeakers.com/products/l...6-5/6mbx44.pdf.
6MDN44 sensitivity 96,5dB
website: B&C Speakers
pdf: http://www.bcspeakers.com/products/lf-driver/6-5/6mdn44.pdf.
If you stay on the 10" options you should have a look again to PHL Audio stuffs : clear and often accurate sound with their treated paper à la Audax aerogel (close?) ; good distorsions measurement made by the few independant reviews ! Zaph had also measured a 8" from PHL Audio or was it a budy website, I don't remember !
Fo/ me a problem could be to XO the woofer as high as 200 or 300 Hz (I planed more a 80/100 hZ to 800 Something... which can move some air with a fast transcient with an efficienty of 95 dB/W/m to try some SE amps à la Hiraga or Pass !
I'm a little confused to chose (like you before) a driver between this "super" woofer and a ribbon mid tweeter. (also for a question of passive filter in a first design version); so I lurk towards some 5" high efficienty drivers but I'm worried about their transcient possibilities just below an AMT (like also the two high efficienty of an AMT in a passive design because the bafle step -6 dB in the woofer aera ! I like the idea of transcient in the low aera of the TPL150 but I beginn to ask myself if it's not better at the end to go more Full Range and XO above 5K (difficult because Center to Center distance and the polar paterns also I assume). So maybe I'm in an inverted path : avoiding maybe the TPL for an other ribbon or AMT !
I need myself to enter in the simulation softs to understand more what I talk about !
regards
PS : About the max spl you plan from the 10G40 at 80 hZ : 105 dB peaks is maybe a little low on some high dynamics peaks (jazz, classical), you should simulate maybe (advises here from experts?) Something more close to 110 dB. I know PHL Audio is nearer than this with their 10" (but they simulate often in vented : can be a trap when going to sealed!)
TD speakers are hard to source here without high customs taxes !
For the fun, have a look on the 20 TK 8R from Davis here in the middle of the page http://www.lamaisonduhautparleur.com/HpDavis.php , never see distorsion measurement or the spl curve either !
Ah, in my mind I was talking about the actual (not of the shelves of the shops in France yet !) 12P80nd/v2 with no break up after 2 k hZ (easy for the driver above it); 0.7 mH
Qts & Qes : 0.15 (my thought is we need mostly transcient in the foundamentals ,even if we need it in the high end for the feeling of subjective transcient in the low end - at least this is my simple understanding- )But in the simulation we made and that Linsources showed in a sealed cabinet with rol off around 220 hz (not far from the bafle step with a 40/45 cm width bafle, I just don't understand how (without EQ), Angeloitacare can go to 50 Hz ?! I should re read the thread, after all maybe he EQ with a soft from a pc !
Ah, also what i find in an other thread if you want to match the efficienty of the tpl150 in Horn config : http://oem.ciare.com/en/297/349/prodotti.php , ok the Qes is not sexy , but at least it must have some microdynamic with a Xmax at 0.25 mm ; the inductance is 0.23 mH !
Elswhere, two members advises but not specialyy for this AMT : new 6MBX44 coming soon sensitivity 98dB
website: B&C Speakers
pdf: http://www.bcspeakers.com/products/l...6-5/6mbx44.pdf.
6MDN44 sensitivity 96,5dB
website: B&C Speakers
pdf: http://www.bcspeakers.com/products/lf-driver/6-5/6mdn44.pdf.
If you stay on the 10" options you should have a look again to PHL Audio stuffs : clear and often accurate sound with their treated paper à la Audax aerogel (close?) ; good distorsions measurement made by the few independant reviews ! Zaph had also measured a 8" from PHL Audio or was it a budy website, I don't remember !
Fo/ me a problem could be to XO the woofer as high as 200 or 300 Hz (I planed more a 80/100 hZ to 800 Something... which can move some air with a fast transcient with an efficienty of 95 dB/W/m to try some SE amps à la Hiraga or Pass !
I'm a little confused to chose (like you before) a driver between this "super" woofer and a ribbon mid tweeter. (also for a question of passive filter in a first design version); so I lurk towards some 5" high efficienty drivers but I'm worried about their transcient possibilities just below an AMT (like also the two high efficienty of an AMT in a passive design because the bafle step -6 dB in the woofer aera ! I like the idea of transcient in the low aera of the TPL150 but I beginn to ask myself if it's not better at the end to go more Full Range and XO above 5K (difficult because Center to Center distance and the polar paterns also I assume). So maybe I'm in an inverted path : avoiding maybe the TPL for an other ribbon or AMT !
I need myself to enter in the simulation softs to understand more what I talk about !
regards
PS : About the max spl you plan from the 10G40 at 80 hZ : 105 dB peaks is maybe a little low on some high dynamics peaks (jazz, classical), you should simulate maybe (advises here from experts?) Something more close to 110 dB. I know PHL Audio is nearer than this with their 10" (but they simulate often in vented : can be a trap when going to sealed!)
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That driver looks SO GOOD on paper, that it makes me nervous !
But, why no response graphs ? I'd venture to say it has a rising response,
which makes it very suitable for a horn loaded mid range design.
If I were looking to cover 400-2K underneath a TPL, I would install this driver
in a shallow waveguide (think Edgar Mid-range horn) sized about the same as the dimensions of the TPL.
Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" Speakers - Faital Pro M5N8-80 5" midrange speaker that has a lightweight neodymium magnet. Faital Pro M5N8-80 80 watt 5" high efficiency of 99dB SPL for all midrange applications.
Yes
Ah, in my mind I was talking about the actual (not of the shelves of the shops in France yet !) 12P80nd/v2 with no break up after 2 k hZ (easy for the driver above it); 0.7 mH
Even the, the directivity issue above 1600Hz or so prevails, and gets worse as frequency increases.
This is why mine is a 4-way.
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