Hello everybody in a sunny and shiny day from Spain:
Introducing myself (already done in the appropriate forum) I’m Alberto, a 40 years old Guy who, not knowing almost nothing in the Speaker’s DIY world, has started his own project after 2 years willing to do it.
My aim is to clone the Sonus Faber Cremona Speakers but with a very low budget… let me explain:
I’ve been a long time crazy for the Cremona’s, but no way to buy them even in the used market, so thanks to one of my friends, I bought a used pair of Monitor Audio Gold Reference GR60 floorstanding speakers, that I have to say they sounds me like angels singing….
Monitor Audio Gold Reference 60 Floorstanding Speakers reviews - Audioreview.com
Speaker Asylum: REVIEW: Monitor Audio GR 60 Speakers by O'Shag
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...-B-amp-W-804-S
A Review of the Perfect Loudspeaker: Monitor Audio Gold Reference 10 - Archived Threads 2001-2004 - Home Theater Forum
But I don’t like how they look all:
So, with my tight budget I thought I colud use the drivers and Xover from the GR60’s inside my cremona’s enclosure. After some tests and looking for lots of information I decided I would do something like this: my Hybrid Cremona’s:
And… the fact is that I designed from the beginning all the CAD drawings and everything and sent the drawings to a Computer cutting and milling, because the guys who had built the Cremona’s Clone in Spain constructed them by adding lots of layers to build the enclosure, but I was sure I wouldn’t be able to do like that and I thought it was easier, faster and much more safe to build them rib by rib, and the fact is that I was in the right way. I will add some pictures of building process later.
When I designed all the stuff I did with the following parameters:
Very similar volumes that the GR60’s but compatible volumes to the BIG_AL Cremona’s Clone… who knows if I will build with this drivers (that was my first opinion, but the budget is quite expensive for me)
I have already built the enclosure. It took me about 12 hours of gluing ribs from 5 to 5 and putting all the together to build the full enclosure (It took about 10 days leaving 24hours to dry each glued portion). This is the result (still not veneered):
And what happens now? Well, I have to say I’m really satisfied with the result and I’m very close to the starting point of this project long time ago: deciding whether or not to use my GR60’S drivers and Xover or a new drivers configuration, and here you are my options for you to give me your suggestions:
1.- Using the Cremona’s drivers and Xover (or the ones designed by my Spanish Friend) that is for each speaker: Morel Supreme Tweeter + Audiothecnology C-Quence 15 H 52 06 13 SD midrange + 2x Scanspeak 18W8531G00 woofers. All this stuff, Xover included and selling my GR60’s would be a $2100 investement (1550€). The pros is that this is a superb configuration, it sounds PERFECT and the Xover is already designed. The con is the hugh amount of money I don’t want to Spend.
2.- Build my own configuration accdording to my budget. For each speaker: Seas 27TDFC-H1189 Tweeter + SEAS MCA15RCY-H1262 mid + 2x SEAS U18RNX-H1571 woofers. All this stuff, adding a Behringer DCX2496 ultradrive pro Xover to avoid the passive Xover desing, and adding the mic and external sound card for measurement, all inclusive and selling my GR60’s would be a $410 investement (300€). The pros: no much expenses (I could rise my budget in drivers up to $675 or 500€). The cons: adding a new electronic device (The DCX2496) and lots of hours of measurement) and I don’t know the results… until I spend the money and test everything.
3.- Using the GR60’s stuff. The cheapest option, the worst looking but I’m pretty sure I will really have a good sound.
Do you think I will get more sound performance with options 1 or 2 or any other option you can suggest me?
I accept all your suggestions about drivers and Xovers, even if they are different to my ideas, but I need something tested and fully working and don’t want to test Xovers because I would become crazy for sure.
Thanks everybody for looking.
Introducing myself (already done in the appropriate forum) I’m Alberto, a 40 years old Guy who, not knowing almost nothing in the Speaker’s DIY world, has started his own project after 2 years willing to do it.
My aim is to clone the Sonus Faber Cremona Speakers but with a very low budget… let me explain:
I’ve been a long time crazy for the Cremona’s, but no way to buy them even in the used market, so thanks to one of my friends, I bought a used pair of Monitor Audio Gold Reference GR60 floorstanding speakers, that I have to say they sounds me like angels singing….
Monitor Audio Gold Reference 60 Floorstanding Speakers reviews - Audioreview.com
Speaker Asylum: REVIEW: Monitor Audio GR 60 Speakers by O'Shag
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...-B-amp-W-804-S
A Review of the Perfect Loudspeaker: Monitor Audio Gold Reference 10 - Archived Threads 2001-2004 - Home Theater Forum
But I don’t like how they look all:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
So, with my tight budget I thought I colud use the drivers and Xover from the GR60’s inside my cremona’s enclosure. After some tests and looking for lots of information I decided I would do something like this: my Hybrid Cremona’s:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And… the fact is that I designed from the beginning all the CAD drawings and everything and sent the drawings to a Computer cutting and milling, because the guys who had built the Cremona’s Clone in Spain constructed them by adding lots of layers to build the enclosure, but I was sure I wouldn’t be able to do like that and I thought it was easier, faster and much more safe to build them rib by rib, and the fact is that I was in the right way. I will add some pictures of building process later.
When I designed all the stuff I did with the following parameters:
Very similar volumes that the GR60’s but compatible volumes to the BIG_AL Cremona’s Clone… who knows if I will build with this drivers (that was my first opinion, but the budget is quite expensive for me)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
vs An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I have already built the enclosure. It took me about 12 hours of gluing ribs from 5 to 5 and putting all the together to build the full enclosure (It took about 10 days leaving 24hours to dry each glued portion). This is the result (still not veneered):
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
And what happens now? Well, I have to say I’m really satisfied with the result and I’m very close to the starting point of this project long time ago: deciding whether or not to use my GR60’S drivers and Xover or a new drivers configuration, and here you are my options for you to give me your suggestions:
1.- Using the Cremona’s drivers and Xover (or the ones designed by my Spanish Friend) that is for each speaker: Morel Supreme Tweeter + Audiothecnology C-Quence 15 H 52 06 13 SD midrange + 2x Scanspeak 18W8531G00 woofers. All this stuff, Xover included and selling my GR60’s would be a $2100 investement (1550€). The pros is that this is a superb configuration, it sounds PERFECT and the Xover is already designed. The con is the hugh amount of money I don’t want to Spend.
2.- Build my own configuration accdording to my budget. For each speaker: Seas 27TDFC-H1189 Tweeter + SEAS MCA15RCY-H1262 mid + 2x SEAS U18RNX-H1571 woofers. All this stuff, adding a Behringer DCX2496 ultradrive pro Xover to avoid the passive Xover desing, and adding the mic and external sound card for measurement, all inclusive and selling my GR60’s would be a $410 investement (300€). The pros: no much expenses (I could rise my budget in drivers up to $675 or 500€). The cons: adding a new electronic device (The DCX2496) and lots of hours of measurement) and I don’t know the results… until I spend the money and test everything.
3.- Using the GR60’s stuff. The cheapest option, the worst looking but I’m pretty sure I will really have a good sound.
Do you think I will get more sound performance with options 1 or 2 or any other option you can suggest me?
I accept all your suggestions about drivers and Xovers, even if they are different to my ideas, but I need something tested and fully working and don’t want to test Xovers because I would become crazy for sure.
Thanks everybody for looking.
I would leave Monitor Audio as it is. If you are satisfied with
the way they sound, good reason not to do anything about them.
Since you do not like its looks and your new boxes are half way
done, you might try to take Monitor's guts with everything out
and install them into a new one. Do your best to copy each part
of Monitor's inside solutions and apply it to Cremona box. Keep
the original boxes in case of a sale.
the way they sound, good reason not to do anything about them.
Since you do not like its looks and your new boxes are half way
done, you might try to take Monitor's guts with everything out
and install them into a new one. Do your best to copy each part
of Monitor's inside solutions and apply it to Cremona box. Keep
the original boxes in case of a sale.
My Cremona's design is based on the Monitor Audio box.
Volumes are:
MonitorAudio: 44liter for woofers and 4,4 liters for Tw+Mid
My Cremona's: 46liter for woofers and 4,7 liters for Tw+Mid
I think is should work OK because inside width is the same, althoug the inide depth is bigger in my cremona sinmce thy have a "roundede" shape instead ob the square box for the M.A.
Volumes are:
MonitorAudio: 44liter for woofers and 4,4 liters for Tw+Mid
My Cremona's: 46liter for woofers and 4,7 liters for Tw+Mid
I think is should work OK because inside width is the same, althoug the inide depth is bigger in my cremona sinmce thy have a "roundede" shape instead ob the square box for the M.A.
Building the Enclosures
Hello again.
I'm beginning to post the work done at Christmas, because the last January I could do nothing because of my work and wondering what to do with drivers as I said in the first post.
I guess I can re-start the building in a week.
First of all, here you are all the stuff manufactured with CNC. All the pieces has been made from DM 30mm depth:
First of all a huge sand to all the ribs with a steel brush to get a better contact surface with the glue.
Then I started the assembly and glueing using wood spikes to assemble rib to rib:
Hello again.
I'm beginning to post the work done at Christmas, because the last January I could do nothing because of my work and wondering what to do with drivers as I said in the first post.
I guess I can re-start the building in a week.
First of all, here you are all the stuff manufactured with CNC. All the pieces has been made from DM 30mm depth:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
First of all a huge sand to all the ribs with a steel brush to get a better contact surface with the glue.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Then I started the assembly and glueing using wood spikes to assemble rib to rib:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yes, that's what I should do, but its a lot of money and I 'm not really sure if that money will give me more than a 10-15% performance or better sound...
Evenmore, I really havent found the original Xover, but an Spanish mate made a clone and a good filter.
Anyone has the filter with the XT25?
Evenmore, I really havent found the original Xover, but an Spanish mate made a clone and a good filter.
Anyone has the filter with the XT25?
what i meant was, if you dont have the original schematic of the crossover and access to the exact drivers they use then u need to buy the equivalent drivers from scanspeak then design the proper crossover for them.
Keeping the baffle width and height similar to your old monitor audio would probably give similar response and transfer function between the drivers, so in short putting the monitor audio drivers and crossover in your new beautiful cabinet prob a better decision rather than designing the whole new speakers.
cheers
henry
Alberto, these look fantastic.
I’d suggest you get the cabs built, (looks like you are not far off), produce a baffle for the drivers and crossover you have, and then make measurements and report here and on other forums for assessment of the results and suggestions for improvements.
The Monitor drivers will be well matched, and if you have matched the cabinet volume etc then crossover adjustment for the new baffle would be the main factor. To minimise this try to leave the spacing between the drivers close to the same as they are on the old set, and if at all possible the distances from the drivers to the edge of the cabinets. Hopefully the drivers and crossovers can match up.
I would really like to do a set of these, so is there any chance I can convince you to share your CAD drawings for them?
If I do produce a set, I'd be very happy to share crossover and driver data and results etc, I might even be convinced to review the internal volume and rig these for some 18w8531g midwoofers.
Either way - good luck with the build.
Trev
I’d suggest you get the cabs built, (looks like you are not far off), produce a baffle for the drivers and crossover you have, and then make measurements and report here and on other forums for assessment of the results and suggestions for improvements.
The Monitor drivers will be well matched, and if you have matched the cabinet volume etc then crossover adjustment for the new baffle would be the main factor. To minimise this try to leave the spacing between the drivers close to the same as they are on the old set, and if at all possible the distances from the drivers to the edge of the cabinets. Hopefully the drivers and crossovers can match up.
I would really like to do a set of these, so is there any chance I can convince you to share your CAD drawings for them?
If I do produce a set, I'd be very happy to share crossover and driver data and results etc, I might even be convinced to review the internal volume and rig these for some 18w8531g midwoofers.
Either way - good luck with the build.
Trev
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Hello, JokerZero.
There's no chance at all you can convince mel to share my drawings.... since I'm glad to share them!
It's been 50 hours CAD drawing but everything is in its perfect position and it's been very very easy to build them (they are already built but not veneered).
Anyway, we need to modify the front pannel depending on your desired drivers and positioning.
I can do it quickly and, again, glad to do it, and more interested if you help me with the crossover.
I can modify internal volumes to match your speakers if you want.
I've checked that those cabinets would accept to build them with the Morel Supreme ST1108 + C-Quence 15H + 2 x SS 18w8531 Cremona's configuration (with a good filter already designed) or to use the Troel's Gravessen EKTA Grande Configuration:
2x18W/8531-G00 + 12M/4631-G00 + R2904/700000 or R2604/832000
I think I'm moving my mind to sell the Monitor Audio set and build the EKTA GRANDE once I have checked that volumes and drivers positioning are compatible....
I'm planning 2x18W/8531-G00 + 12M/4631-G00 + R2604/832000.
You can contact me here or PM
There's no chance at all you can convince mel to share my drawings.... since I'm glad to share them!
It's been 50 hours CAD drawing but everything is in its perfect position and it's been very very easy to build them (they are already built but not veneered).
Anyway, we need to modify the front pannel depending on your desired drivers and positioning.
I can do it quickly and, again, glad to do it, and more interested if you help me with the crossover.
I can modify internal volumes to match your speakers if you want.
I've checked that those cabinets would accept to build them with the Morel Supreme ST1108 + C-Quence 15H + 2 x SS 18w8531 Cremona's configuration (with a good filter already designed) or to use the Troel's Gravessen EKTA Grande Configuration:
2x18W/8531-G00 + 12M/4631-G00 + R2904/700000 or R2604/832000
I think I'm moving my mind to sell the Monitor Audio set and build the EKTA GRANDE once I have checked that volumes and drivers positioning are compatible....
I'm planning 2x18W/8531-G00 + 12M/4631-G00 + R2604/832000.
You can contact me here or PM
Sorry missed the above, thanks for the offer on the CAD drawing - now need to get budget and approval for drivers.
You decision sound very good, I seriously doubt anything I could ever come up with would meet Troel's standard - the man is a legend and the builds on his designs speak for themselves.
Once Ive worked out out what getting those cabs cut will cost I will see what I can spend on drivers, I am certain the set for the EKTA GRANDE will sound great, and while your baffle might not match Troel's original design any impact will likely be small, (although he does say you are on your own if you deviate from his baffle design.)
You decision sound very good, I seriously doubt anything I could ever come up with would meet Troel's standard - the man is a legend and the builds on his designs speak for themselves.
Once Ive worked out out what getting those cabs cut will cost I will see what I can spend on drivers, I am certain the set for the EKTA GRANDE will sound great, and while your baffle might not match Troel's original design any impact will likely be small, (although he does say you are on your own if you deviate from his baffle design.)
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You are very right...
Do you know where can I find the original crossover and drivers setting.
I have read a lot about it and there are lots of threads about: if or not the Vifa XT25 or SS R2904... if the C-Quence or the SS 12M/4631-G00 mid... the only thing I'm sure of is the SS 18W/8531-G00 woofers.
Do you know where can I find the original crossover and drivers setting.
I have read a lot about it and there are lots of threads about: if or not the Vifa XT25 or SS R2904... if the C-Quence or the SS 12M/4631-G00 mid... the only thing I'm sure of is the SS 18W/8531-G00 woofers.
I thought that the original tweeter is custom for Sonus, so unless you have contacts with Sonus or SS, not available for direct purchase, a ring radiator from SS selected to match the 18W8531 is probably as close as you will get, again Troel's EKTA options with the more expensive tweeter R2904/700000 should sound about as good as it gets, only problem is that one is silver when sold over here.