Modern sound ! whats the difference , i know good and bad, whats modern ?
Open, 3 dimensional, high resolution, micro detail, image specificy, low coloration, homogenious, dynamic, disappearing act, speed, timing...
I think a lot of " old " speakers sounded kind of foggy. There are exceptions i mentioned :
Quad, Beveridge, Ohm F and hey, the Klipshorn had good bass.
I think a lot of " old " speakers sounded kind of foggy. There are exceptions i mentioned :
Quad, Beveridge, Ohm F and hey, the Klipshorn had good bass.
Congratulations on your 10,000 th post!
Congratulations Joachim....An average of over 5 post per day for 5 years!
Thanks for a huge amount of well informed and well qualified opinion and information...I have learned a lot from your posts, you are very generous with your time and effort.
Here's to the next 5 years!
All the best
Derek.
Congratulations Joachim....An average of over 5 post per day for 5 years!
Thanks for a huge amount of well informed and well qualified opinion and information...I have learned a lot from your posts, you are very generous with your time and effort.
Here's to the next 5 years!
All the best
Derek.
Many thanks Derek. It was a fun ride and i learned a lot too.
It's a small world, Joachim! 
I was talking to my brother in law on holiday, and he told me his stereo setup was Audio Physic Medea speakers with Manger units designed by yourself. He apparently flew out to meet you a few years back. These are not exactly it but give the idea:
Yours are 3 mangers and 3 bass units AFAIK.
He also uses Manger units for his 5.1 home cinema. They are the spookiest speakers I have ever heard. No colouration at all, which was weird to listen to. We are not used to speakers like that.
I was talking to my brother in law on holiday, and he told me his stereo setup was Audio Physic Medea speakers with Manger units designed by yourself. He apparently flew out to meet you a few years back. These are not exactly it but give the idea:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Yours are 3 mangers and 3 bass units AFAIK.
He also uses Manger units for his 5.1 home cinema. They are the spookiest speakers I have ever heard. No colouration at all, which was weird to listen to. We are not used to speakers like that.
Manger himself crossed it too low and not steep enough.
Also the two side firing ones increase the area of radiation.
I did not invent the side firing ones but i used them in another way, in the time domain and also mechanical.
The damping of the head was very specific.
I created an internal resonator so that the side firing ones pushed the front membrane forward at specific frequencies, also known as the " Manger hole".
Manger did not like that name at all of cause.
Manger being a sceptic also did not trust in " audiophile " parts like high voltage P-P caps and of cause we listened to wiring and such.
The cabinet was very special, like a funnel.
My bass tuning was very different.
Manger went for a Qt much under 0.5 so his monitors went deep but did not have any punch to talk about.
Also the two side firing ones increase the area of radiation.
I did not invent the side firing ones but i used them in another way, in the time domain and also mechanical.
The damping of the head was very specific.
I created an internal resonator so that the side firing ones pushed the front membrane forward at specific frequencies, also known as the " Manger hole".
Manger did not like that name at all of cause.
Manger being a sceptic also did not trust in " audiophile " parts like high voltage P-P caps and of cause we listened to wiring and such.
The cabinet was very special, like a funnel.
My bass tuning was very different.
Manger went for a Qt much under 0.5 so his monitors went deep but did not have any punch to talk about.
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This test is ruthless but shows some problems :Manger MSW
I do really not like to give the Manger a bad name.
Daniela today does a fantastic job to bring out the best in the driver and many people like it better then aything else.
Manger the man had certainly the biggest influence on me, more then any other designer.
Ones you are over " The Manger Shock " you hear details down in the deep stage you may never imagine.
That is one reason it is so successfull in studios.
Other speakers have other problems you know and who understands the ear better then the big master Joseph himself.
I profitted big time from his enormous knowlage and lateral thinking.
We still have a way to go and that is good.
I do really not like to give the Manger a bad name.
Daniela today does a fantastic job to bring out the best in the driver and many people like it better then aything else.
Manger the man had certainly the biggest influence on me, more then any other designer.
Ones you are over " The Manger Shock " you hear details down in the deep stage you may never imagine.
That is one reason it is so successfull in studios.
Other speakers have other problems you know and who understands the ear better then the big master Joseph himself.
I profitted big time from his enormous knowlage and lateral thinking.
We still have a way to go and that is good.
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The Medea is certainly a remarkable speaker, Joachim. It has a complete lack of "something" that we normally get with conventional speakers.
I've never so clearly heard the lack of resolution in CD at quiet levels where it becomes nearer, say, 4 bit. You can almost hear the digital clicks.
I suppose the lack of dispersion at high frequency is a the glaring difference, but it has all the qualities of an electrostatic speaker or headphone.
I'd like to hear some Diana Krall on them, since those are my usual reference CDs, and will do that in November. The thing good speakers always do, IMO, is tempt you to turn them up ridiculously loud without fatigue, because they sound quiet. Getting some punch or slam to the sound is something I like too.
Paradoxically, I seem to get this quality with higher order filters, say 4th, in two ways, so I'm not actually sure if transient perfect is what is special about the Mangers.
It may just be the best midrange unit around.
I've never so clearly heard the lack of resolution in CD at quiet levels where it becomes nearer, say, 4 bit. You can almost hear the digital clicks.
I suppose the lack of dispersion at high frequency is a the glaring difference, but it has all the qualities of an electrostatic speaker or headphone.
I'd like to hear some Diana Krall on them, since those are my usual reference CDs, and will do that in November. The thing good speakers always do, IMO, is tempt you to turn them up ridiculously loud without fatigue, because they sound quiet. Getting some punch or slam to the sound is something I like too.
Paradoxically, I seem to get this quality with higher order filters, say 4th, in two ways, so I'm not actually sure if transient perfect is what is special about the Mangers.
It may just be the best midrange unit around.
The Manger driver
Hi Joachim,
I have just got back from a music festival Festival Number 6 - Festival Number 6 ...it was great, esp the acoustic sets...The standard of some of the big rig PA's were not up to the best available.
The purity of the back stage acoustic sets (piano, strings and vocals) was lost when the mic'd up and used the PA's on the bigger stages.
London Grammar vocals sound way better on my home system than their live PA...!
With some bands the lack of coverage from compression drivers and horns was a serious problem....You could watch the drummer hitting the cymbal and not hear it at all in the mix...
So the Mangers lack of HF coverage may not be too much of a deal breaker if you don't mind a narrow sweet spot.
I loved the Mangers purity and it really can capture the magic of acoustic sets at medium SPL's.
I managed to get great results at high SPL by using a DEQX with linear phase crossovers at 400Hz and Pro drivers for bass mid and sub bass.
The two way Ovation and three way Finale are attached...
Daniela and Joseph are lovely people, really hard working and dedicated.
All the best
Derek.
Hi Joachim,
I have just got back from a music festival Festival Number 6 - Festival Number 6 ...it was great, esp the acoustic sets...The standard of some of the big rig PA's were not up to the best available.
The purity of the back stage acoustic sets (piano, strings and vocals) was lost when the mic'd up and used the PA's on the bigger stages.
London Grammar vocals sound way better on my home system than their live PA...!
With some bands the lack of coverage from compression drivers and horns was a serious problem....You could watch the drummer hitting the cymbal and not hear it at all in the mix...
So the Mangers lack of HF coverage may not be too much of a deal breaker if you don't mind a narrow sweet spot.
I loved the Mangers purity and it really can capture the magic of acoustic sets at medium SPL's.
I managed to get great results at high SPL by using a DEQX with linear phase crossovers at 400Hz and Pro drivers for bass mid and sub bass.
The two way Ovation and three way Finale are attached...
Daniela and Joseph are lovely people, really hard working and dedicated.
All the best
Derek.
Attachments
When considering german "Dual" brand's models from the 70's, IMO Model "CL 161" is even more interesting and unique from a technical point of view.
Attached pictures show wiring and front baffle. A rather simple model of course ...
Kind Regards
Attached pictures show wiring and front baffle. A rather simple model of course ...
Kind Regards
Attachments
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Some data concerning bending wave designs e.g. from Manger, Naim ("BMR") and German Physicks ("DDD")
Manger:
http://portal.tugraz.at/portal/page...ige BA PA DA/DA_Hiebel_Biegewellenwandler.pdf
See chapter 8 for a small collection of measurements also made independently from manufacturer.
Naim "BMR", based on "New Transducers Limited" now "HiWave" patents:
See 1st attachment for frequency response under angles.
German Physicks "DDD", based on Walsh approach:
See 2nd attachment for frequency response under angles >400Hz.
Those angles are "on axis" and "vertical angles" 25cm and 50cm "above the transducer", unfortunately those "professional journalists" do not report even the distance. Also they assume the radiation to be radially symmetric (by the looks of the driver i suppose ...), without having even tested their assumption.
http://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher_stereo/german_physiks-hrs_120_2971-seite3
Manger:
http://portal.tugraz.at/portal/page...ige BA PA DA/DA_Hiebel_Biegewellenwandler.pdf
See chapter 8 for a small collection of measurements also made independently from manufacturer.
Naim "BMR", based on "New Transducers Limited" now "HiWave" patents:
See 1st attachment for frequency response under angles.
German Physicks "DDD", based on Walsh approach:
See 2nd attachment for frequency response under angles >400Hz.
Those angles are "on axis" and "vertical angles" 25cm and 50cm "above the transducer", unfortunately those "professional journalists" do not report even the distance. Also they assume the radiation to be radially symmetric (by the looks of the driver i suppose ...), without having even tested their assumption.
http://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher_stereo/german_physiks-hrs_120_2971-seite3
Attachments
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