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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 15th July 2013, 08:15 AM   #221
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Room response of AINOgradient

A single bass box and two towers (LM,HM,T) playing at WAF-accepted speaker positions in my living room (60cm from front wall, 2,5m apart, 2m from side walls, mic at 3m distance. Mic centerpoint a my listening spot and moved at max 1m radius in 3 dimensions, 13 measurements "center-weighted" and also shown the effet of moving in just one plane. 200ms rear window and 1/6 oct smoothing in all measurements.

I think that the power response in close to what is considered good for small rooms (my room 3,6 x 5m with many openings and a tilted ceiling, lots of windows. The measurements with low level of highs are from floor level!
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Old 15th July 2013, 06:45 PM   #222
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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That dip above at 250Hz was a phase issue. I carried the proto woofer and MTM pole outside today and set W to LM xo lower. I had to boost LM's low end a little. LM still has a dip around 220Hz, it is a floor bounce cancellation at my measuring distance 150 to 150cm.

there is a difficulty with phase matcing of the lowest xo of a 4-way speaker having Duelund(ish) xo. I have managed that by using LR4/LR2/LR4 orders instead of all being similar. But in the room - monopole radiation of the woofer is practically impossible to match flawlessly with a dipole lower mid. A sacrifice of my concept. Generally speaking (sub)woofer matching is very difficult below the Schroeder frequency of the room, because reflective modes make phase go all around.

I didn't save outdoor measurements, but here are the indoor measurements with speakers at listening position, like in the previous post. The last one is with LR playing together.

AINOgradient ice v7 indoor
Attached Images
File Type: png ainogice v7 room l 0¤ all indiv 200ms 13.png (65.7 KB, 127 views)
File Type: png ainogice v7 room l gd 6ms.png (49.2 KB, 21 views)
File Type: png ainogice v7 room l decay spectr 6ms.png (462.1 KB, 13 views)
File Type: png ainogice v7 room l r lr 200ms.png (51.0 KB, 15 views)
File Type: png ainogice v7 room lr aver 5 200ms 16.png (66.4 KB, 20 views)
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Last edited by Juhazi; 15th July 2013 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 15th July 2013, 09:37 PM   #223
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Here is a link to Stereophile measurements of Jamo R 907, They considered that it is a bit too bright, but generally very good. Notice resemblance..

Here is a link to Stereophile measurements of Gradient Helsinki 1.5, very similar measured responses to AINO, but different consept (dipole bass, cardioid mid)
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Old 16th July 2013, 09:34 AM   #224
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Here I visualize, why I wanted speakers with high and even directivity index (DI) for my living room setup. The animation show sound power gradients interfenrence/summation in stereo and we notice the wider listening area (relative L and R power ratio being constant). Of course time coherence is maintained only at exactly same distance to L and R.

We can also see why it is important to toe-in high DI speakers!

The second major benefit of high directivity is that speakers make less floor, sidewall and ceiling reflections. These reflections degrade soundfield and are perceived mainly as deterioration of stero image and irregulaties in amplitude response.
Attached Images
File Type: gif high vs low di stereo ani.gif (66.5 KB, 47 views)
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Last edited by Juhazi; 16th July 2013 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 16th July 2013, 10:18 AM   #225
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
Here I visualize, why I wanted speakers with high and even directivity index (DI) for my living room setup. The animation show sound power gradients interfenrence/summation in stereo and we notice the wider listening area (relative L and R power ratio being constant). Of course time coherence is maintained only at exactly same distance to L and R.

We can also see why it is important to toe-in high DI speakers!
If it were as easy as that in the real world.
Does your wider sweet spot keep its quality over the colored area? It is more like three (or five) single spots in my case where time/intensity trading works.
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Old 16th July 2013, 11:06 AM   #226
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Rudolf, mys post #221 covers your question with an overay of 13 measurement made in a hemisphere around "the spot", radius 1m. This shows just amplitude response of two speakers playing same signal simultaneously (thus lots of lobing). I don't trust my measuring skills enough to analyze other aspects.

But, believe me - I and my friends can verify that the sound and image "hold together" exceptionally well with AINOs. I still don't have two bass boxes, so this is not final! I will report back when I have measured and auditioned a full pair. The pianist Petrescu is on tour now and my wife-in-law's son who is an EE (specialized in dsp) is coming here next week. I hope to get boxes ready for them.
Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by Juhazi; 16th July 2013 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 17th July 2013, 08:39 AM   #227
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Another simplistic presentation of benefits of dipole speakers.

A dipole radiates evenly front and back, but sideways is attenuated more than 10dB. A monopole radiates evenly front and sideways, but backways is attenuated more than 6-10dB.

For good sound perception in stereo, early reflections should be minimal and attenuated. Late reflections add "spaciousness" to the sound. Reflections naturally continue their paths and meet crossed walls, attenuate by distance and start to blend. The bigger and "softer" the room is, the better.

In these graphics, red arrows represent strong spl and blue attenuated spl. The lenth of an arrow represents delayed time for hearing the signal. Close o back wall is no-no for both (unless on-wall for monopoles).

Positioning of speakers in these graphs is ideal. Both surfer from placing them closer to walls, but in a different manner. Dipoles suffer most from placing too close to front wall (behind the speakers) and not toe-in'ing them. Monopoles suffer most from placing too close to side walls.
Attached Images
File Type: png wide room reflections d vs m.png (47.8 KB, 39 views)
File Type: png narrow room reflections d vs m.png (34.6 KB, 42 views)
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Last edited by Juhazi; 17th July 2013 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 24th July 2013, 10:50 AM   #228
zmyrna is offline zmyrna  United Kingdom
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Juhazi,
What do you think about the Fountek ribbon (with horn)?
What other tweeters have you used in the past and how does this horn ribbon compare to them?
You seem to have liked the phase match better at 4000Hz crossover; why did you end up going back to 3000Hz?

I am thinking of purchasing 3.5H to pair with Neo8s. Design will be similar to Greg's studio monitor in the picture. However my baffle will be much wider (think JBL 4345 enclosure), so I am thinking of using a horn/waveguide tweeter to avoid edge diffraction in high frequencies.
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Old 26th July 2013, 08:24 PM   #229
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Most of my speakers have SEAS tweeters, mostly in waveguides (also non-diy ones). My friend has Fountek CD3 with diy-waveguides. I like these 3.5H a lot! sound is very clear and uncoloured - better than SEAS. Those who have listened to them, say the same. The measured response is extemely even and power response falls off nicely "by the book"

Recommended xo is 3500 or more, but waveguide helps. I lowered xo frequency because of the high-mid driver going above it's dipole-null. I am mostly concerned with directivity, distortion is however not a problem by my measurements and by listening. In a baffle like in your attachment, I can't say a word about diffractions and directivity. Perhaps you should do some simulations?

A Warning - so far I have spoiled two ribbons by messing with my amplifiers connections. I recommend a protective high-pass capacitor in series at least when you are just testing these!
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Old 28th July 2013, 04:57 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
Most of my speakers have SEAS tweeters, mostly in waveguides (also non-diy ones). My friend has Fountek CD3 with diy-waveguides. I like these 3.5H a lot! sound is very clear and uncoloured - better than SEAS. Those who have listened to them, say the same. The measured response is extemely even and power response falls off nicely "by the book"
Think most are unaware of how critical this actually is. Not just in OB designs but in all others too

Quote:
Recommended xo is 3500 or more, but waveguide helps. I lowered xo frequency because of the high-mid driver going above it's dipole-null. I am mostly concerned with directivity, distortion is however not a problem by my measurements and by listening.
Waveguide helps by extending the tweeters power band. Acoustically correcting for an issue normally addressed with equalization, albiet incorrectly done because it can't resolve the off axis without adversly affecting the on axis. Nice

Quote:
A Warning - so far I have spoiled two ribbons by messing with my amplifiers connections. I recommend a protective high-pass capacitor in series at least when you are just testing these!
Have 100uf in series with my AMT's crossed @2.2k active. Takes nothing but once and they are toast without. It was a handy size laying around
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