I like the look of your project. Nice work. I'll probably do something similar in the end.
At what crossover frequency with the woofers do you think one of the mid-range drivers would be adequate with? Keep in mind that I'm currently just proto-typing the tweeter/mid-range pair for a final 3-way project.
i dont know. i wouldn`t pick that driver. with that SD size maybe 500-600 hz. but that doesn`t make sense at all. because then you need for example an 6 1/2 " bassmidrange and below 60-80hz a sub.
personally i never found a speaker that i liked who crossed at that range.
every 3 way i build ist mor like a sat/sub thing. i try to cross midrange and tweeter as low as possible. midrange and bass i cross usually between 50-60hz. so i get only one crossing point at a really noticable frequency and a tight and flawless bass. the sub is in that case only the salt in the soup, but you won`t die if the bass wouldn`t work. and i mean `not a mono sub. every speaker gets his own bass channel.
personally i never found a speaker that i liked who crossed at that range.
every 3 way i build ist mor like a sat/sub thing. i try to cross midrange and tweeter as low as possible. midrange and bass i cross usually between 50-60hz. so i get only one crossing point at a really noticable frequency and a tight and flawless bass. the sub is in that case only the salt in the soup, but you won`t die if the bass wouldn`t work. and i mean `not a mono sub. every speaker gets his own bass channel.
I see what your saying. Surface area = punch and dynamics. Qualities I'm looking for.
Ignore what I said at the beginning of the thread. I'm now thinking that my target crossover frequencies should be 180-240 and 2500-3000 (approx 3 octaves for each driver). If I double up the C90-6-724 I'll have SD of 162. Compare that to a single C173-6-090 which would have 133. Plus more motors for more efficiency. Does this math work?
I appreciate the feedback.
Ignore what I said at the beginning of the thread. I'm now thinking that my target crossover frequencies should be 180-240 and 2500-3000 (approx 3 octaves for each driver). If I double up the C90-6-724 I'll have SD of 162. Compare that to a single C173-6-090 which would have 133. Plus more motors for more efficiency. Does this math work?
I appreciate the feedback.
falconsprint,
I can't help but feel that you're aiming for the wrong goalposts here.
My suggestion would be to do it right from the start and optimize your driver selection for a 3-way plus a sub instead of trying to stretch everything out into a 2-way plus sub. Especially when you're dealing with such high end drivers.
So instead of trying to make two C90's do the job of one C173 and also trying to make your subs fill in on the low midbass, just use 1 x C90 for say 330 - 2600Hz (a true 3 octaves) and then add 2 x C173 for all the punch and dynamics that you're looking for between 80-330Hz. This way each driver is operating very comfortably within its optimum range.
Take a look at the C173-6-096 for example - The Madisound Speaker Store. It says its useful range is 40-3000Hz but then look down at its Harmonic Distortion graph: beautiful and clean until you hit about 85Hz and then it sky-rockets as the LF decreases. So, xo above that point.
If you look at the HD graph for the C90, The Madisound Speaker Store, you'll see that its HD starts heading for the skies just after 200Hz, so again, cross it over above that point. While you're at it, notice that you'll also have to tame those ugly 3rd harmonic peaks around 3000Hz.
Now you can also optimize the placement of your subs anywhere in the room because they also are not being asked to operate outside of their comfort zones and produce frequencies that are localizable.
Just my 2 cents of course.
I can't help but feel that you're aiming for the wrong goalposts here.
My suggestion would be to do it right from the start and optimize your driver selection for a 3-way plus a sub instead of trying to stretch everything out into a 2-way plus sub. Especially when you're dealing with such high end drivers.
So instead of trying to make two C90's do the job of one C173 and also trying to make your subs fill in on the low midbass, just use 1 x C90 for say 330 - 2600Hz (a true 3 octaves) and then add 2 x C173 for all the punch and dynamics that you're looking for between 80-330Hz. This way each driver is operating very comfortably within its optimum range.
Take a look at the C173-6-096 for example - The Madisound Speaker Store. It says its useful range is 40-3000Hz but then look down at its Harmonic Distortion graph: beautiful and clean until you hit about 85Hz and then it sky-rockets as the LF decreases. So, xo above that point.
If you look at the HD graph for the C90, The Madisound Speaker Store, you'll see that its HD starts heading for the skies just after 200Hz, so again, cross it over above that point. While you're at it, notice that you'll also have to tame those ugly 3rd harmonic peaks around 3000Hz.
Now you can also optimize the placement of your subs anywhere in the room because they also are not being asked to operate outside of their comfort zones and produce frequencies that are localizable.
Just my 2 cents of course.
I appreciate the honest feedback and thanks for taking the time to help.
I just want to make sure you are aware that I've changed the goal from the start of the thread. I am no longer interested in incorporating my NHT S80 subwoofers into the project. Perhaps I should ask we stop discussion in this thread and I'll start a new thread, including a discussion about which woofers to use and the optimal crossover frequencies.
I'd like to build a 3-way full range system. The deqx active crossover only supports a 3-way system You can do 4-way with two hdp-4s, but I would rather spend the money on drivers.
I'm thinking a target crossover of 240hz, and 2500hz with the deqx. Both steep, 48db octave or higher. I'm sure that itself is a controversial topic. But as I've said above, once you buy into the deqx, steep crossovers are the norm. So both issues shouldn't be a problem.
I agree, but my current listening room has an abundance of absorption. I don't need a lot of LF equalization with my current setup.
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Im not suggesting it, just saying....but 'in the old days', a widerange driver with a ribbon top would be a classic
ofcourse nothing is perfect
but not sure I understand why it would be good to mate a very refined ribbon with a dry hard cone
I might consider a 9" Feastrex, if I could afford it
but surely not for playing loud
or there are the French PHY
or how about MANGER
ofcourse nothing is perfect
but not sure I understand why it would be good to mate a very refined ribbon with a dry hard cone
I might consider a 9" Feastrex, if I could afford it
but surely not for playing loud
or there are the French PHY
or how about MANGER
When you know these ribbon, you know why. ;-)
Hamm, why do you want To cross that high? Why not at maybe 80hz? A lot of 6 1/2 and 8" can do it in a feine manner.
I don' t understand why are you so married To the small accuton? For the price of the two c90 you could get the c220-222. Makes a little bit mor sense. And under that two 8" or 12".
What spl in your room do you want To achieve ?
Hamm, why do you want To cross that high? Why not at maybe 80hz? A lot of 6 1/2 and 8" can do it in a feine manner.
I don' t understand why are you so married To the small accuton? For the price of the two c90 you could get the c220-222. Makes a little bit mor sense. And under that two 8" or 12".
What spl in your room do you want To achieve ?
I'm looking for good off axis response at 2500hz.
Impressive SPL. The speakers will also be used for HT.
I'm certainly not the person that should be trying something that is not recommended. So I'll reconsider the C90. Let's start at the ends and find a middle. Suppose I built a three-way with the RAAL 140-15D and two Accuton S280-6-282 woofers. Which Accuton mid-range would fit in the middle using the deqx as an active crossover?
And let me add that I'd only like to consider sealed enclosures.
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There are documented 3-ways using Accuton drivers online. Take Troels for example, using the C173-6-191E. He shows that good results can be had with an Accuton driver. He said nice things about this version in his Jenzen series.
Jenzen-Accu
You could go all out by getting the C173-6-096E which is expensive and currently used by the likes of Vapor Sound and Clearwave Speakers. There are even builds on HTguide right now using the driver.
You can certainly build a 3-way using an Accuton driver as the midrange. I think you are getting hung up with the trade-offs. Build it and sound will come.
Jenzen-Accu
You could go all out by getting the C173-6-096E which is expensive and currently used by the likes of Vapor Sound and Clearwave Speakers. There are even builds on HTguide right now using the driver.
You can certainly build a 3-way using an Accuton driver as the midrange. I think you are getting hung up with the trade-offs. Build it and sound will come.
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Yep, I agree. I will spend more time looking at documented builds and pick one of the C173 drivers.
Thanks
Sorry, don't mean to be contrary, but I think this is absolutely the wrong philosophy in your case. If you're humming and hawing over a $40 or $50 driver, then fine, just build it and see what happens. But in your case, not so much.
Plan it out, explore your options, don't be hasty and get as much confirmation as you can.
For me, my next question is do you want to go sealed, vented or perhaps sealed with a passive radiator or 2 for your bottom end, now that you're not using a sub? In other words, what kind of transient response are you looking for in that frequency range? I'll assume an f3 in the neighborhood of 30Hz.
Once we know that, then we can recommend drivers that will suit. You may want to specify your budget too 'cause right now we're all the way up to suggesting $1000 drivers.
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For me, my next question is do you want to go sealed, vented or perhaps sealed with a passive radiator or 2 for your bottom end, now that you're not using a sub? In other words, what kind of transient response are you looking for in that frequency range? I'll assume an f3 in the neighborhood of 30Hz.
Once we know that, then we can recommend drivers that will suit. You may want to specify your budget too 'cause right now we're all the way up to suggesting $1000 drivers.
Yep, I understand I need to reset the discussion. Here's what I have in mind:
- full range left/right 3-way (equalized flat to 20Hz)
- matching center able to go to 120Hz
- active crossover with DEQX HDP-4 (max 3-way)
- uses RAAL 140-15D AM tweeter
- sealed (to simplify deqx measurements)
- I like big, punchy, loud, but not fatiguing.
- looking to enlarge my soundstage compared to my current speakers (which is how I ended up with the RAALs)
- I listen to music with drums, bass, jazz vocals, synths, some orchestra.
- will be used for home theater, action movies, high SPL (LFE will be handled with separate subwoofers)
- Room has lots of absorption.
- No WAF issues
- Room is 5 meters by 6 meters.
- using solid state amplification with active crossover.
- I have above average wood working skills, but not expert.
- will accept an ugly get the job done cabinet and then build a nice one later.
- I'm ok with the price of the drivers I've mentioned.
- 1 or 2 midrange drivers, probably 2 woofers given my desire for full range.
- Each midrange or woofer would be amplified seperately, so no low impedance concerns.
I just want to add a big thanks for everyone helping me along here. Obviously I came into this lacking some of the necessary fundamental knowledge. And by now you've also figured out that I don't want to start small and work my way up. If you can point me in a 'likely to not fail' direction that's all I ask. I'm looking for a DIY project for my DEQX. I want to use top quality drivers. I figure that I may get it wrong at first. With quality drivers plus the deqx I should be able to eventually get it right.
Thanks
Dave
Thanks
Dave
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