I'm listening to my current speakers and I'm thinking that the positioning of the speaker in the room is crucial !
When I'm sitting in front, I get all the front wave in the face, the sound is really good.
When I'm at a 30° angle, already the sound is different. Less high frequencies...
In fact I think it's important not to have the two stereo speakers parallel.
For my new project I will position the speakers not in the corner of a room. I will have a 30° angle between their front axis. I will put the tweeters much higher than in my current setup. Probably at standing level, about 1m50 from the floor.
When I'm sitting in front, I get all the front wave in the face, the sound is really good.
When I'm at a 30° angle, already the sound is different. Less high frequencies...
In fact I think it's important not to have the two stereo speakers parallel.
For my new project I will position the speakers not in the corner of a room. I will have a 30° angle between their front axis. I will put the tweeters much higher than in my current setup. Probably at standing level, about 1m50 from the floor.
By the way, do you already own those speakers (D300P04, 16GKLV6M, TW025A28) because I own a similar concept :
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/23208-system-pictures-description-212.html#post2881608
One idea could be re-using the medium crossover section from the MV15 kit. Crossover who has certainly been designed by Mr Visan.
For the tweeter section, you could start with a text book 18db/octave filter at 3500 hz with a LPAD of ~3 db.
Of course go for sealed enclosure for the medium, ~13 l was used in the MV15 kit.
Concerning the woofer section, you may have a look at the 12BR70 wich has 3 more dB of sensitivity.
You will find in attachment the measure on axis of the low pass section of the Davis 16 (0.56 mH + 4.7 mF). It's about 4.5 Khz, and should be more near 3.5 kHz of axis.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/23208-system-pictures-description-212.html#post2881608
One idea could be re-using the medium crossover section from the MV15 kit. Crossover who has certainly been designed by Mr Visan.
For the tweeter section, you could start with a text book 18db/octave filter at 3500 hz with a LPAD of ~3 db.
Of course go for sealed enclosure for the medium, ~13 l was used in the MV15 kit.
Concerning the woofer section, you may have a look at the 12BR70 wich has 3 more dB of sensitivity.
You will find in attachment the measure on axis of the low pass section of the Davis 16 (0.56 mH + 4.7 mF). It's about 4.5 Khz, and should be more near 3.5 kHz of axis.
Attachments
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It's beautiful !!!
The paint work is excellent ! Did you do the white ones ?
How does it sound like ?
I want to create something new, not make a cheap copy !
Why 18db/Octave ?
No. I will lose everything below 200 Hz.
Remember, my cutoff is a first order only...
Beyma is not a French brand. The spirit of my project is to have only French drivers.
Thank you very much, this is very helpful
.I thinjk that a high cutoff at 3.5 kHz is the maximum for this driver !
Hi Yov,
You are on the right track with your project, but if I was to use the drivers you mentioned I would definitly consider LR2 filters.
If you want to look at the off-axis performance of your design try simming it with Boxsim (it's German sorry) Boxsim - Homepage there is an English version available for download.
And if you really dislike the power loss in the x-over you can always go active..
You are on the right track with your project, but if I was to use the drivers you mentioned I would definitly consider LR2 filters.
If you want to look at the off-axis performance of your design try simming it with Boxsim (it's German sorry
) Boxsim - Homepage there is an English version available for download.And if you really dislike the power loss in the x-over you can always go active..
"I beg your pardon", "pardon Monsieur!" I just brought your post from the other tread you linked above. Question: Is this stone for a 4-way?! They look really good anyway, should I say... French?A short description of my system (almost finished) using french brands of loudspeaker
This is my firts multi-amp system and also my first three way system ! What a big sound with all this, "live sound" at home
Here another interesting project, a 3-way - CYCLOP à la Focal (SEAS) by Troels Gravesen.
No pun intended but maybe the JLA use of Spanish Beyma T2030 will affect international relations.Beyma is not a French brand. The spirit of my project is to have only French drivers.
6moons audio reviews: JLA Acoustique Perspective 2 Signature + Stand 80
Definitely agree with you. French engineering is a must in this case. Salut!
Atohm, Audax, Focal, Supravox, Phy-HP, Fertin, PHL Audio and more.
Ou comme M. Petoin Dominique le dirais,
Oops, didn't think about that !
The filter order must be combined to the driver's response to obtain the acoustical order.
BUT, in my case, I have chosen drivers frequency response that overlap a lot.
The Mid goes up to 5000-6000, while the tweeter goes down to 1000. So If I take 4000 as a cutoff for my filter, I'm far away from both drivers cutoff and no need to take into account the driver response slope
Hi Yov,
You are on the right track with your project, but if I was to use the drivers you mentioned I would definitly consider LR2 filters.
If you want to look at the off-axis performance of your design try simming it with Boxsim (it's German sorry
And if you really dislike the power loss in the x-over you can always go active..
Thanks, I will try this software !
"I beg your pardon", "pardon Monsieur!" I just brought your post from the other tread you linked above. Question: Is this stone for a 4-way?! They look really good anyway, should I say... French?
Here another interesting project, a 3-way - CYCLOP à la Focal (SEAS) by Troels Gravesen.
No pun intended but maybe the JLA use of Spanish Beyma T2030 will affect international relations.
6moons audio reviews: JLA Acoustique Perspective 2 Signature + Stand 80
Definitely agree with you. French engineering is a must in this case. Salut!
Atohm, Audax, Focal, Supravox, Phy-HP, Fertin, PHL Audio and more.
Ou comme M. Petoin Dominique le dirais,
I didn't know that M.Petoin was known in the English speaking world!
One of the things for which I used his knowledge is the aspect ratio of the chambers.
He says that 1 - 1.2 - 1.44 is very good.
Proportions des enceintes
@inductor
@Yov
If you inport the Davis 16 .frd and .zma files from part express in a simulation tool, you will see that this assertion is wrong.
It takes 10 minutes to do this with PCD.
By the way the D300P04 is made in PRC ...
Yes, comming from a torrent of Chamonix
@Yov
The Mid goes up to 5000-6000, while the tweeter goes down to 1000. So If I take 4000 as a cutoff for my filter, I'm far away from both drivers cutoff and no need to take into account the driver response slope
If you inport the Davis 16 .frd and .zma files from part express in a simulation tool, you will see that this assertion is wrong.
It takes 10 minutes to do this with PCD.
By the way the D300P04 is made in PRC ...
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I was thinking to change for this one:
http://www.supravox.fr/haut_parleurs/400_GMF.htm
but too expensive... 600 euros !
What can you recommend ?
- rubber suspension
- not more than 300 euros
- cutoff below 500 Hz
- made in France
- 91db or above
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Hi guys,
Some news of my project !
I'm almost done with the woodwork of the first speaker
I still need to cut out the holes: for the 3 drivers, for the binding posts and for the vent.
It took a while to apply wood paste to all the junctions between the different wood parts and to be as much air-proof as possible. I also bought some rubber joints to stick around the woofer and midrange volumes.
I've decided to make a few changes to the initial plan.
The 16GKLV6M mid-range will be working in a closed box. It will be cut-off at 300Hz so no need to have a bass reflex vent to enhance the low-frequency .
As for the woofer it will have only one vent in PVC : 9.4cm x 33cm.
The next step is to paint the white sublayer/undercoat in order to make the MDF less porous.
After that, I think that I will paint it all in glossy black. I would also like to have part of it painted in dark red but I don't know where...
Cheers
Some news of my project !
I'm almost done with the woodwork of the first speaker
I still need to cut out the holes: for the 3 drivers, for the binding posts and for the vent.
It took a while to apply wood paste to all the junctions between the different wood parts and to be as much air-proof as possible. I also bought some rubber joints to stick around the woofer and midrange volumes.
I've decided to make a few changes to the initial plan.
The 16GKLV6M mid-range will be working in a closed box. It will be cut-off at 300Hz so no need to have a bass reflex vent to enhance the low-frequency .
As for the woofer it will have only one vent in PVC : 9.4cm x 33cm.
The next step is to paint the white sublayer/undercoat in order to make the MDF less porous.
After that, I think that I will paint it all in glossy black. I would also like to have part of it painted in dark red but I don't know where...
Cheers
Attachments
Bonjour,
250 Hz low pass is too high without EQ for this speaker IMHO (FIY I own it) T/S Le = 2.47 mH ... I'm going ton use 12BR70.
With a first order high pass at 4000 Hz, I think the cone breakup of the 16GKLV6M at 14 kHz will be not enough tamed.
Why not going second order , same question for the tweeter.
Yov, you should simulate your crossover with SW or PCD.
My design is going to be : 12BR70 + 16GKLV6M + TW034
- first order for the 12,
- second order low and high pass for the 16, third order for tweeter.
Point of crossover, 350 Hz and 2000 Hz.
The bass speaker is the Atohm D300P04, I haven't changed my mind
250 Hz low pass is too high without EQ for this speaker IMHO (FIY I own it) T/S Le = 2.47 mH ... I'm going ton use 12BR70.
With a first order high pass at 4000 Hz, I think the cone breakup of the 16GKLV6M at 14 kHz will be not enough tamed.
Why not going second order
, same question for the tweeter. Yov, you should simulate your crossover with SW or PCD.
My design is going to be : 12BR70 + 16GKLV6M + TW034
- first order for the 12,
- second order low and high pass for the 16, third order for tweeter.
Point of crossover, 350 Hz and 2000 Hz.
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Bonjour Pascal,
For the D300P04, Atohm recommends a cut-off frequency at 500Hz which I think is too high because at this frequency the impedance is already 12Ohms. At 250Hz the impedance is 7 Ohms. I think that starting at 250Hz the first order filter will slowly help the woofer to cut-off naturally as the frequencies increase.
Why do you say that 250 Hz is too high ? Please explain this T/S Le thing !
With a first order high pass at 4000 Hz, I think the cone breakup of the 16GKLV6M at 14 kHz will be not enough tamed.
Why not going second order
With a first order cutting-off at 4000Hz, the attenuation at 14kHz will be almost -15dB. Do you think it is enough to mask the cone breakup ?
To be honest, I'm still hesitating in switching to a second order for the high cut-off of the mid-range with the tweeter. But I don't like complex filters because I'm afraid of them ! Plus, they are more expensive and much more subject to errors!
Perhaps a second-order could be better, I'm still thinking as I assemble the wood.
The 12BR70 is much cheaper than the Atohm D300P04 and looks similar in performance, but it doesn't go as down as the D300, I think.
Your crossover filter looks very complex, you will need at least 9 electrical components per speaker!
The second-order @ 2000 Hz for the Davis is a shame... The 16GKLV6M has a linear response up to at least 10KHz.
Are you using a closed box for the Davis ?
Do you intend to start this new project soon ?
Attachments
Bonjour,
I've send my email in PM, maybe it would be easier to discuss in french
You will find in attachment the SPL and impedance files, see plot.
My advice ad a fisrts start:
- first follow the original filter designed by Mr Visan (see mv15.pdf in attachment) for the medium and add a LPAD to correct the level in order to match the woofer sensitivity (susbstract amount of BSC from the woofer sensitivity : 3/4 db)
- calculate a third order textbook high pass filter at 5000 Hz for the tweeter and a LPAD to match with the medium sensitivity with the filter
- As done in the original crossover, the BSC of the medium may be corrected by the woofer crossed at 350 Hz first order.
An optionnal RC circuit may be added to flatten the impedance of the woofer.
You should try to import .frd and .zma in Passive Crossover Designer (PCD)
and try to simulate your complete crossover. I think i can find my old measures of the D300P04
Concerning the simulations of the two speaker D300P04 and 12BR70, see WINISD simulations : 12 BR70 / 90l / 35 hz - D300P04 - 60 l - 30 hz both 350 Hz low pass first order.
See plot ... Very linear
I've send my email in PM, maybe it would be easier to discuss in french
You will find in attachment the SPL and impedance files, see plot.
My advice ad a fisrts start:
- first follow the original filter designed by Mr Visan (see mv15.pdf in attachment) for the medium and add a LPAD to correct the level in order to match the woofer sensitivity (susbstract amount of BSC from the woofer sensitivity : 3/4 db)
- calculate a third order textbook high pass filter at 5000 Hz for the tweeter and a LPAD to match with the medium sensitivity with the filter
- As done in the original crossover, the BSC of the medium may be corrected by the woofer crossed at 350 Hz first order.
An optionnal RC circuit may be added to flatten the impedance of the woofer.
You should try to import .frd and .zma in Passive Crossover Designer (PCD)
and try to simulate your complete crossover. I think i can find my old measures of the D300P04
Concerning the simulations of the two speaker D300P04 and 12BR70, see WINISD simulations : 12 BR70 / 90l / 35 hz - D300P04 - 60 l - 30 hz both 350 Hz low pass first order.
See plot ... Very linear
Attachments
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On both setups, If you look at your response at 25Hz, there is nothing left (around 76dB)...
If you choose 87L for the Atohm D300P04 with a vent resonance frequency at 25Hz, you obtain almost 86dB at 25Hz (please see simulation in attachment).
Regarding the response of the 16GKLV6M, you are right ! It is not linear at all starting at 2000Hz. So I think the option of cutting off with a second order will mask all those non-linearities above 2000Hz but you need a tweeter capable of going down to 2000Hz.
On my side, the first order cutting off at 4000Hz turns out to be not so bad because it will attenuate the response peak of the 16GKLV6M around 4000Hz with a -3dB attenuation. As for the seconde peak at 15KHz, you will have -15dB of filtering at this point (~78dB response), so it will be completely hidden by the tweeter 92dB at this point.
Attachments
Classical design of crossover are made to match LR4 accoustic slopes between medium and tweeter.
This can be usualy done by inserting a second order electrical low pass crossover on the medium and a third order electrical high pass on the tweeter.
I can't presume of the transfert fonction of a crossover without simulations.
QB3 alignment for D300P04 is 52l tuned to 33 hz.
This can be usualy done by inserting a second order electrical low pass crossover on the medium and a third order electrical high pass on the tweeter.
I can't presume of the transfert fonction of a crossover without simulations.
QB3 alignment for D300P04 is 52l tuned to 33 hz.
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