i got to hear the venerable la scala for the first time couple days ago and was properly blown away. distortion free room filling sound, jaw dropping dynamics. and once again, or so undistorted! it's hard to go back to my meager narrow baffle 3way now. i must clone the la scala, or build some other horn speaker. id like to keep my budget under $1000, and the size should be apartment friendly. (say 100litre ish?) could i get some suggestions please?
p.s. one thing i didnt get to check is how agile la scala's bass is. i'm assuming it's good enough for say, 166bpm electronica?
p.s. one thing i didnt get to check is how agile la scala's bass is. i'm assuming it's good enough for say, 166bpm electronica?
The horn bug is something special and the La Scala has some of that horn magic. With the right driver it goes down to 50-60 Hz, scaling it down to 100 liters from 350 liters will really kill the bass. The efficency of the horns comes at a price and that is either size or bass. The LS has a problem with vibrating side walls and would really benefit from some side braces. If size is a problem Crites CS 1.5 and perhaps CornScala D is the one to try
ls failed the knuckle test bad and i did hear a lot of coloration. but yes, the horn bug did get me with it's erm, 'horness' (its hard for me to pinpoint what was most appealing to me. dynamics, lack of distortion and the 'openness' all surprised me at once)
if there's are modern designs that should best la scala, id love to hear about it. i was debating on whether to go for dtqwt couple of months ago. perhaps i lost the arguemet.
ive been a 'hifi' listener for the longest time, always focusing on treble and bass, mainly listening to idm (electronica) but these days im yearning for classical for some reason and don't mind trading some extension for more truthful midrange. perhaps my tastes are changing for the worse, cuz things are abut to get a lot more exotic and expensive.
i read that wmtmw can pull off some of the feats horns are capable of, so maybe my salvation isn't too far.
oh and thx, zen mod. i'm getting my calculator out
if there's are modern designs that should best la scala, id love to hear about it. i was debating on whether to go for dtqwt couple of months ago. perhaps i lost the arguemet.
ive been a 'hifi' listener for the longest time, always focusing on treble and bass, mainly listening to idm (electronica) but these days im yearning for classical for some reason and don't mind trading some extension for more truthful midrange. perhaps my tastes are changing for the worse, cuz things are abut to get a lot more exotic and expensive.
i read that wmtmw can pull off some of the feats horns are capable of, so maybe my salvation isn't too far.
oh and thx, zen mod. i'm getting my calculator out
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I remember it as a fantastic PA speaker. Grab an old DC 300 and your band was in business. For a hi-fi speaker? Well lets just say I am not a horn guy. Efficient, yes. Low mid-bass HD, yes, but I can't stand all the other distortion issues horns have. We have come a long way in 50 years. I would suggest you at least read everything over on the GEDLEE site. Lots of progress. You can take those ideas and do much better now.
New LaScala ideas
Yes you have discovered a very important speaker in the history of speaker design and although in my opinion, the stock LaScala design is a quite long in the tooth but there are many easy tweaks, mods, etc. that can be done to make quite an amazing speaker system for not too much cash and without having to hack up the speaker too much.
Personally I think you are on the right path if you put in the effort, do some research on this what people have done tweaking this design and you will be greatly rewarded with a great speaker that plays music and not just an audiophile trick machine that you will grow tired of after a while.
The people who don't like horns most likely have not hear a decent horn set up and yes the most painful, awful sound I have ever heard in my life was from a beat up set of LaScalas in a recording studio with a giant old solid state amp on it.....Ouch!!!!, it is painful to even think of it.
The second worst sound I have ever heard was some Klipsch horns and an a black faced Crown DC300II, luckily I was there to sell the guy some great tube amps running in triode. Just changing the amps on those K-horns was the single biggest change I have ever witnessed in an audio system..period. Went from pain to beauty in a few minutes.
For some reason when you use a small quality tube amp on horns (especially a triode amp) it minimizes the horn painfulness and sometimes even the horn coloration seems to be minimized or at least lets you focus on the music and not the short comings of a horn.
I am also guessing some of those small class A solid state designs would work great on horns also but I don't have any experience yet so I can't comment. The Brooksie hybrid tube driver/mosfet class A output Moskido with the output cap eliminated supposedly gives many pure tube amps a hard time. There is a long thread on this amp.
I have built several folded horns and I would say they take considerable time and woodworking skills. Have at it if you like to saw wood, although you might want to build the Belle model as it is a very similar design and they don't stick out in to the room as much as the LaSacala. Belle plans are easily found on the web.
I think the folded horn section of the stock Belle might sound a little better than the stock LaSacala from my memory although I have not heard them side by side. (Klipsch Forum should have some strong opinions on this).
If your budget is only $1000 you might want to find some beat up LaScalas locally and refurb and tweak as you go along. If you see some Belle's for under $1000 (not likely) grab them quick , they are quite a bit more rare than LaSala's and a little nicer to look at.
You mention tapping on the cabinet of the LaScala, well that booming sound is definitely audible but it is easily fixed with one triangle shaped brace on each side of the bass horn mouth. Why Paul Klipsch didn't do this is a mystery to me, yes the guy was a very clever speaker designer for his time and the drivers available to him but lack of bracing in many models makes me wonder if this was actually a cost cutting measure.
A friend of mine has some LaScala's and he has replaced the tweeter with a Coral model, time aligned it by mounting it on top in line with the voice coil of the stock alnico K55v mid driver, put in a different crossover, put a big blob of the $1.99 a stick grey electrical putty found in Home Depot right in the middle of the stock metal mid horn. Don't go crazy with too much putty as you can actually overdamp the horns and also you probably will want to sell the stock horns after getting a wood tractrix replacement.
He also uses an amazing home brew single ended 2A3 amp many years of research behind it and Magnequest transformers. About 8 watts with the newer 2A3's and this amp through the LaScala's can play over 110 db easy. For an 88 db speaker to do this you would probably need a 250 wpc amp depending on the speaker complexity of the load. For the good amps with 250 wpc you are talking some seriously big money usually.
The sound of his LaSacala's are quite amazing except for bass that completely dies around 60-70hz, not roll off gentle, dies, nothing, nada down low.
You can have two choices, build one of the port mods found on the net or try to get a a sub to integrate.
A super low distortion and supposedly very natural sounding Rythmik Audio sealed sub with the paper driver their mechanical servo should be a really good option as I have heard reports that nearly everyone who has used the Rythmiks has dumped their Velodynes.
Although the Rythmik might be out of your budget you will want to save up and get it for the furture, and although I have not used the Rythmik's, reports are is that it is one of the few subs that plays nice with speakers that are notoriously hard to meld a sub with, like electrostats and horns.
In the mean time here is an easy port design for a LaScala without building an extra box like some ported LaScala's require
Ported Lascala project
Here is the same guy and he builds an Elliptical tractrix LaSacala horn that is probably the last mid horn you will ever need if you get it built in plywood.
* One caveat about tractrix horns is that they beam at 20x the mouth cutoff, so you can only go to 8K on the top end or in math terms 400hz x 20=8000hz.
Although the tractrix profile has an extremely flat frequency response for a horn even in the non round elliptical shape and is highly worth using over the bad stock Klipsch LaScala mid horn of which I have never heard anyone express a liking for. The K55V doesn't go above 8 k anyway so I guess the point is moot but I just wanted to mention it.
I really love the alnico K55v and there are precious few compression drivers that can go as low, especially in the 1" size throat. Yes some metal diaphragm 2" drivers match the K55v in low end response and have a better transient response..detail... blah blah and blah blah, but the k55v on the right horn has a very flat response, and nice tonality to also has a very low price compared to other compression drivers that get as low as it does.
Tough driver to replace, although I would defintely spend the extra dough on a larger compression driver for a K-horn as there is and always has been an unacceptable gap between the woofer and the mid horn.
I have been trying to get the guy to build the kit version in plywood instead of awful mdf, which I hate with a serious passion. The problem is that most plywood is now .7"instead of .75" like the mdf measures. His computer router would have to be completely recalibrated to get the correct horn shape, so unless he will agree to order a special order sheet of .75" plywood I am stuck because I won't let mdf in my house for speakers or counter tops. Anyone who want to have a heated debate about mdf versus plywood for health, moisture absorption and sound reasons, bring it on!
Eliptrac 400
Here is a guy with different crossover designs, I think my buddies LaScala uses one of them, not sure which.
Klipsch loudspeaker corner
And finally a fully completed commercial design based on the layout LaScala and nothing more. It is a dream of mine that the guy would sell the plans for his folded bass section, although if you get a chance to read the story behind the speaker and the amount of time and research he put in to it I can totally see why he would not want to sell it.
Volti Audio - Hi-Efficiency Horn Speakers
Wow, I can't believe how long my post is, you just hit on a speaker that has been on my mind for a few years and will likely be my next speaker project.
Yes you have discovered a very important speaker in the history of speaker design and although in my opinion, the stock LaScala design is a quite long in the tooth but there are many easy tweaks, mods, etc. that can be done to make quite an amazing speaker system for not too much cash and without having to hack up the speaker too much.
Personally I think you are on the right path if you put in the effort, do some research on this what people have done tweaking this design and you will be greatly rewarded with a great speaker that plays music and not just an audiophile trick machine that you will grow tired of after a while.
The people who don't like horns most likely have not hear a decent horn set up and yes the most painful, awful sound I have ever heard in my life was from a beat up set of LaScalas in a recording studio with a giant old solid state amp on it.....Ouch!!!!, it is painful to even think of it.
The second worst sound I have ever heard was some Klipsch horns and an a black faced Crown DC300II, luckily I was there to sell the guy some great tube amps running in triode. Just changing the amps on those K-horns was the single biggest change I have ever witnessed in an audio system..period. Went from pain to beauty in a few minutes.
For some reason when you use a small quality tube amp on horns (especially a triode amp) it minimizes the horn painfulness and sometimes even the horn coloration seems to be minimized or at least lets you focus on the music and not the short comings of a horn.
I am also guessing some of those small class A solid state designs would work great on horns also but I don't have any experience yet so I can't comment. The Brooksie hybrid tube driver/mosfet class A output Moskido with the output cap eliminated supposedly gives many pure tube amps a hard time. There is a long thread on this amp.
I have built several folded horns and I would say they take considerable time and woodworking skills. Have at it if you like to saw wood, although you might want to build the Belle model as it is a very similar design and they don't stick out in to the room as much as the LaSacala. Belle plans are easily found on the web.
I think the folded horn section of the stock Belle might sound a little better than the stock LaSacala from my memory although I have not heard them side by side. (Klipsch Forum should have some strong opinions on this).
If your budget is only $1000 you might want to find some beat up LaScalas locally and refurb and tweak as you go along. If you see some Belle's for under $1000 (not likely) grab them quick , they are quite a bit more rare than LaSala's and a little nicer to look at.
You mention tapping on the cabinet of the LaScala, well that booming sound is definitely audible but it is easily fixed with one triangle shaped brace on each side of the bass horn mouth. Why Paul Klipsch didn't do this is a mystery to me, yes the guy was a very clever speaker designer for his time and the drivers available to him but lack of bracing in many models makes me wonder if this was actually a cost cutting measure.
A friend of mine has some LaScala's and he has replaced the tweeter with a Coral model, time aligned it by mounting it on top in line with the voice coil of the stock alnico K55v mid driver, put in a different crossover, put a big blob of the $1.99 a stick grey electrical putty found in Home Depot right in the middle of the stock metal mid horn. Don't go crazy with too much putty as you can actually overdamp the horns and also you probably will want to sell the stock horns after getting a wood tractrix replacement.
He also uses an amazing home brew single ended 2A3 amp many years of research behind it and Magnequest transformers. About 8 watts with the newer 2A3's and this amp through the LaScala's can play over 110 db easy. For an 88 db speaker to do this you would probably need a 250 wpc amp depending on the speaker complexity of the load. For the good amps with 250 wpc you are talking some seriously big money usually.
The sound of his LaSacala's are quite amazing except for bass that completely dies around 60-70hz, not roll off gentle, dies, nothing, nada down low.
You can have two choices, build one of the port mods found on the net or try to get a a sub to integrate.
A super low distortion and supposedly very natural sounding Rythmik Audio sealed sub with the paper driver their mechanical servo should be a really good option as I have heard reports that nearly everyone who has used the Rythmiks has dumped their Velodynes.
Although the Rythmik might be out of your budget you will want to save up and get it for the furture, and although I have not used the Rythmik's, reports are is that it is one of the few subs that plays nice with speakers that are notoriously hard to meld a sub with, like electrostats and horns.
In the mean time here is an easy port design for a LaScala without building an extra box like some ported LaScala's require
Ported Lascala project
Here is the same guy and he builds an Elliptical tractrix LaSacala horn that is probably the last mid horn you will ever need if you get it built in plywood.
* One caveat about tractrix horns is that they beam at 20x the mouth cutoff, so you can only go to 8K on the top end or in math terms 400hz x 20=8000hz.
Although the tractrix profile has an extremely flat frequency response for a horn even in the non round elliptical shape and is highly worth using over the bad stock Klipsch LaScala mid horn of which I have never heard anyone express a liking for. The K55V doesn't go above 8 k anyway so I guess the point is moot but I just wanted to mention it.
I really love the alnico K55v and there are precious few compression drivers that can go as low, especially in the 1" size throat. Yes some metal diaphragm 2" drivers match the K55v in low end response and have a better transient response..detail... blah blah and blah blah, but the k55v on the right horn has a very flat response, and nice tonality to also has a very low price compared to other compression drivers that get as low as it does.
Tough driver to replace, although I would defintely spend the extra dough on a larger compression driver for a K-horn as there is and always has been an unacceptable gap between the woofer and the mid horn.
I have been trying to get the guy to build the kit version in plywood instead of awful mdf, which I hate with a serious passion. The problem is that most plywood is now .7"instead of .75" like the mdf measures. His computer router would have to be completely recalibrated to get the correct horn shape, so unless he will agree to order a special order sheet of .75" plywood I am stuck because I won't let mdf in my house for speakers or counter tops. Anyone who want to have a heated debate about mdf versus plywood for health, moisture absorption and sound reasons, bring it on!
Eliptrac 400
Here is a guy with different crossover designs, I think my buddies LaScala uses one of them, not sure which.
Klipsch loudspeaker corner
And finally a fully completed commercial design based on the layout LaScala and nothing more. It is a dream of mine that the guy would sell the plans for his folded bass section, although if you get a chance to read the story behind the speaker and the amount of time and research he put in to it I can totally see why he would not want to sell it.
Volti Audio - Hi-Efficiency Horn Speakers
Wow, I can't believe how long my post is, you just hit on a speaker that has been on my mind for a few years and will likely be my next speaker project.
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And even more thoughts! Wow I just realized you are in Korea, I guess you don't have as much to choose from in the used Klipsch market as over here in the US so building is probably your best bet.
I am pretty sure you will not be happy with the sound if you try to shrink the bass section of a LaScala or Belle, they are already both lacking in low bass to barely be considered a full range speaker, although the little bass that is there is amazingly clear and super fast with low distortion as the 15 inch driver barely has to move to get the same output as a direct radiator.
Electronica will need a sub or port mod for sure, certain light classical and jazz can sort of get away in stock form but after hearing a talk at Axpona in by Jim Smith the author of the book "Get Good Sound" He recommends a sub for almost every speaker in existence with possible exceptions of some super full range designs with bass below 20hz.
The reason he states is that the super low bass from say a Rythmik audio 14hz sub actually improves the mids and treble because it allows you to hear the ambiance cues
that are in the sub bass area. I know some out there are snickering saying that adding bass could not possibly help the treble and mids but Jim Smith is quite a bright and experienced guy, I would not dismiss his findings too lightly.
Good luck with your speaker, please don't hesitate to ask me any questions, I have had a lot of experience building and tweaking many speakers both horn and direct radiator for the past 30+ years and would love to chat about this particular project you are working on as I you can see from my ridiculously long posts.
I am pretty sure you will not be happy with the sound if you try to shrink the bass section of a LaScala or Belle, they are already both lacking in low bass to barely be considered a full range speaker, although the little bass that is there is amazingly clear and super fast with low distortion as the 15 inch driver barely has to move to get the same output as a direct radiator.
Electronica will need a sub or port mod for sure, certain light classical and jazz can sort of get away in stock form but after hearing a talk at Axpona in by Jim Smith the author of the book "Get Good Sound" He recommends a sub for almost every speaker in existence with possible exceptions of some super full range designs with bass below 20hz.
The reason he states is that the super low bass from say a Rythmik audio 14hz sub actually improves the mids and treble because it allows you to hear the ambiance cues
that are in the sub bass area. I know some out there are snickering saying that adding bass could not possibly help the treble and mids but Jim Smith is quite a bright and experienced guy, I would not dismiss his findings too lightly.
Good luck with your speaker, please don't hesitate to ask me any questions, I have had a lot of experience building and tweaking many speakers both horn and direct radiator for the past 30+ years and would love to chat about this particular project you are working on as I you can see from my ridiculously long posts.
And another thing....wmtmw speakers can have excellent dynamics and low distortion approaching horns and but they still are direct radiators and a wmtmw for what you are talking will be as big or bigger as the LaScala plus a small 12" sealed sub and also probably require some pretty serious and expensive amplification.
Also in my experience when you have two drivers covering the same frequency range it can never be as clear as one driver covering the same range. Yes I know I am probably ruffling quite a few feathers with this comment but it is true and I have been down both roads. Never use two drivers for the same frequency range if you are looking for the ultimate in image and resolution.
I stand and defend my comment even though there are quite a few really expensive speakers that break this rule. They can sound pretty darn good as I have heard many of them sound but a single driver per frequency range with still be more clear if you keep the volume in check.
Also in my experience when you have two drivers covering the same frequency range it can never be as clear as one driver covering the same range. Yes I know I am probably ruffling quite a few feathers with this comment but it is true and I have been down both roads. Never use two drivers for the same frequency range if you are looking for the ultimate in image and resolution.
I stand and defend my comment even though there are quite a few really expensive speakers that break this rule. They can sound pretty darn good as I have heard many of them sound but a single driver per frequency range with still be more clear if you keep the volume in check.
I too am easily seduced by a speaker that can render acoustic guitar plucks with percussion you can feel. Keep in mind a couple of things - one is that a horn must be very large to play low lows and the La Scala is sharply attenuated below about 80 hz. That's why the bass is so clean and un-boomy. Boom is mostly below 90hz. Punch is around 200hz, slap at 4-500 and tap is above 1khz so they are unaffected.
To answer your question - You might be out of luck if you want to play beat heavy electronica with a smaller bass horn.
I have four LaScalas, and although they have been great fun, one can do better if starting from scratch.
That is not to discourage you. But the midrange and tweeter can be improved. And the crossover. And once you're doing those, you might as well build the bass bin as an un-folded properly front-loaded horn.
So you start to have something which is no longer a LaScala. But if you like the whole package, there are plans on the Internet. But just in my personal opinion, you'll want to improve the midrange horn (and crossover) at the very least.
Audio mind, I got the Elliptrac 400 and love it. It is a big improvement to my ears (but I'm still using the stock K33V compression driver, rather than a 2" driver -- I hope to upgrade someday...)
That is not to discourage you. But the midrange and tweeter can be improved. And the crossover. And once you're doing those, you might as well build the bass bin as an un-folded properly front-loaded horn.
So you start to have something which is no longer a LaScala. But if you like the whole package, there are plans on the Internet. But just in my personal opinion, you'll want to improve the midrange horn (and crossover) at the very least.
Audio mind, I got the Elliptrac 400 and love it. It is a big improvement to my ears (but I'm still using the stock K33V compression driver, rather than a 2" driver -- I hope to upgrade someday...)
rjbond3rd,
An unfolded horn probably isn't too apartment friendly, I would imagine most especially in Asia where PreSapian is located. Yes all else being equal the straight horn is always better but then it brings you to which plans to use or do you design them yourself with a horn program and hope they come out?
The apartment issue is why I suggested to copy the less deep and slightly wider Belle Klipsch and add a little more bracing where it the wood booms.
I have used Edgar round tractrix horns in the past so I am pretty sure the Elliptrac 400 will be a huge upgrade over the stock LaScala horn which can be quite painful to my ears at times.
I am assuming you mean K55V compression driver not K33V? (K33 is the Klipsch woofer.)
If you have the K55V I would not sell them until you are sure you have found a compression driver you love after living with it for a while.
Bob Crites did some tests between most of the k series 1" Klipsch screw on drivers and the origianal K55V came out on top with the most flat and extended frequency response even over the new Altlas driver for some reason.
I have tried many new compression drivers and most seem to disappoint in some way after living with them for a while not matter how much you spend. The K55V might not have the most resolution or knock you out transient response but I can live with it and that says a lot.
Here is some of my opinions on the new stuff, Neodym mags leave me cold by sounding cold and most of the time just shift the response up slightly over the ceramic counter part leaving a even bigger gap in the 400-800hz range. Plastic diaphragm compression drivers loose all the excitement I am listening to a horn for in the first place. I really think ceramic and neo magnets are fine for commercial sound systems with giant solid state chuffers slamming the power to them but please give me alnico mag anything for fine relaxing listening at home.
Now there are some features that work for me on the new stuff like shorting rings, certain metal diaphragms with plastic surrounds, phase plugs that allow comp drivers to go up high without eq but it seems most company's can't seem to put everything together in one driver and unfortunately only the extreme Japanese companies are doing the alnico mags but most are copies of old designs as far as I know, so you may as well get some vintage drivers and recharge them for much less money.
Back too the K55V ahhh...easy, cheap, decent sound, send yours in to Orange county speakers to recharge them as Alnico I believe looses 1-2% of its charge a year, if your drivers are 30 years old that is somewhere between 30-60% power loss! A recharge should bring back some of the detail and snap those snazzy new drivers have got, also I think the K55 diaphragms fatigue after a while and do well with new phrams.
AM
An unfolded horn probably isn't too apartment friendly, I would imagine most especially in Asia where PreSapian is located. Yes all else being equal the straight horn is always better but then it brings you to which plans to use or do you design them yourself with a horn program and hope they come out?
The apartment issue is why I suggested to copy the less deep and slightly wider Belle Klipsch and add a little more bracing where it the wood booms.
I have used Edgar round tractrix horns in the past so I am pretty sure the Elliptrac 400 will be a huge upgrade over the stock LaScala horn which can be quite painful to my ears at times.
I am assuming you mean K55V compression driver not K33V? (K33 is the Klipsch woofer.)
If you have the K55V I would not sell them until you are sure you have found a compression driver you love after living with it for a while.
Bob Crites did some tests between most of the k series 1" Klipsch screw on drivers and the origianal K55V came out on top with the most flat and extended frequency response even over the new Altlas driver for some reason.
I have tried many new compression drivers and most seem to disappoint in some way after living with them for a while not matter how much you spend. The K55V might not have the most resolution or knock you out transient response but I can live with it and that says a lot.
Here is some of my opinions on the new stuff, Neodym mags leave me cold by sounding cold and most of the time just shift the response up slightly over the ceramic counter part leaving a even bigger gap in the 400-800hz range. Plastic diaphragm compression drivers loose all the excitement I am listening to a horn for in the first place. I really think ceramic and neo magnets are fine for commercial sound systems with giant solid state chuffers slamming the power to them but please give me alnico mag anything for fine relaxing listening at home.
Now there are some features that work for me on the new stuff like shorting rings, certain metal diaphragms with plastic surrounds, phase plugs that allow comp drivers to go up high without eq but it seems most company's can't seem to put everything together in one driver and unfortunately only the extreme Japanese companies are doing the alnico mags but most are copies of old designs as far as I know, so you may as well get some vintage drivers and recharge them for much less money.
Back too the K55V ahhh...easy, cheap, decent sound, send yours in to Orange county speakers to recharge them as Alnico I believe looses 1-2% of its charge a year, if your drivers are 30 years old that is somewhere between 30-60% power loss! A recharge should bring back some of the detail and snap those snazzy new drivers have got, also I think the K55 diaphragms fatigue after a while and do well with new phrams.
AM
That said the K77 alnico version tweeters according to Bob Crites have problems getting up there above 10-12-k because of their finicky diaphragm alignment and/or maybe worn out phenolic that I believe Bob still has not found a suitable replacement source for. So the top end is wide open to me.
I have even let some ceramics and neo mags around to play on the tweets sometimes.
I think though when I get around to building a small and short 2500hz cutoff elliptical tractrix to sit on top of and match the profile Elliptrac 400 to use with a 1" compression driver, it is back to alnico on the top.
I have even let some ceramics and neo mags around to play on the tweets sometimes.
I think though when I get around to building a small and short 2500hz cutoff elliptical tractrix to sit on top of and match the profile Elliptrac 400 to use with a 1" compression driver, it is back to alnico on the top.
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I should stop being a vintage alnico snob because some of these new drivers really are not as bad as I say just that the old stuff is hard to beat.
I would love to hear the Vittora and I would love to get the plans for its bass horn if Greg would sell them.
Not sure if the Vittora uses the B&C DCM50 or BMS4592, I couldn't find the testing pages when the drivers were compared on Volti's site, it is there somewhere I think unless the info is removed.
From my experience I think I would like the B&C driver better although the BMS driver would shock people with how polite it is for a compression driver, the BMS drivers in general do not sound anything like most compression drivers to me, no harshness at all.
Just looking at the at the frequency response of the Vittora bass section next to the LaScala bass section tells me the Vittora should be a much smoother sounding speaker with much more bass down to the horn cutoff.
Guess it is time to email Volti to see if we can get the plans for the Vittora bass section.
I would love to hear the Vittora and I would love to get the plans for its bass horn if Greg would sell them.
Not sure if the Vittora uses the B&C DCM50 or BMS4592, I couldn't find the testing pages when the drivers were compared on Volti's site, it is there somewhere I think unless the info is removed.
From my experience I think I would like the B&C driver better although the BMS driver would shock people with how polite it is for a compression driver, the BMS drivers in general do not sound anything like most compression drivers to me, no harshness at all.
Just looking at the at the frequency response of the Vittora bass section next to the LaScala bass section tells me the Vittora should be a much smoother sounding speaker with much more bass down to the horn cutoff.
Guess it is time to email Volti to see if we can get the plans for the Vittora bass section.
Mini LaScala!
Hey I forgot about these on the Volvotreter site.
Volvotreter has and apartment friendly mini LaScala that goes down to 100 hz but they definitely need a sub for sure.
Again I recommend the Rythmik single sub to begin with (if you are short on cash only $600 for driver and amp) or two separate paper driver 12" sealed subs for small size (1.6 cubic foot sealed for sub 20hz sound!!) and low distortion to match horns speed in bass.
You really want two subs for stereo when you can afford it. Rythmik states above 80 hz some localization of a sub is apparent. I have always known this regardless of what the book smart unexperienced engineers say when they state bass is non directional.
The Rythmik guy has a patent on his mechanical servo, it
has a little more distortion than an electronic servo but
apparently is way more natural sounding. Get the paper
driver because they allow a crossover hight than 80hz and
the paper blends nicely with the paper midbass horn.
Rythmik Audio 12" Servo subwoofer " GR 12" Custom Installation subwoofer
and the wonderful Volvotreter site, thanks Volvlotreter for
your great info on horns!
http://www.volvotreter.de/downloads/lascala10inch.pdf
My old system
I think now you should have everything you need to build an absolutely amazing reference full range speaker system that will fit in your aparment.
The rule of thumb for years for retail cost of speakers has been about 5x the manufacturing cost so if you spend $1500 on your diy speaker it should roughly be equal to about a $7500 retail speaker system.
Although in recent years that formula has gone out the window in the ultra high end where designers actually price speakers artificially high to make people think they are better. Go figure...
Good Luck!
Hey I forgot about these on the Volvotreter site.
Volvotreter has and apartment friendly mini LaScala that goes down to 100 hz but they definitely need a sub for sure.
Again I recommend the Rythmik single sub to begin with (if you are short on cash only $600 for driver and amp) or two separate paper driver 12" sealed subs for small size (1.6 cubic foot sealed for sub 20hz sound!!) and low distortion to match horns speed in bass.
You really want two subs for stereo when you can afford it. Rythmik states above 80 hz some localization of a sub is apparent. I have always known this regardless of what the book smart unexperienced engineers say when they state bass is non directional.
The Rythmik guy has a patent on his mechanical servo, it
has a little more distortion than an electronic servo but
apparently is way more natural sounding. Get the paper
driver because they allow a crossover hight than 80hz and
the paper blends nicely with the paper midbass horn.
Rythmik Audio 12" Servo subwoofer " GR 12" Custom Installation subwoofer
and the wonderful Volvotreter site, thanks Volvlotreter for
your great info on horns!
http://www.volvotreter.de/downloads/lascala10inch.pdf
My old system
I think now you should have everything you need to build an absolutely amazing reference full range speaker system that will fit in your aparment.
The rule of thumb for years for retail cost of speakers has been about 5x the manufacturing cost so if you spend $1500 on your diy speaker it should roughly be equal to about a $7500 retail speaker system.
Although in recent years that formula has gone out the window in the ultra high end where designers actually price speakers artificially high to make people think they are better. Go figure...
Good Luck!
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Tiny horn sub!
One more thing, I found plans for a very small horn sub it is still little large compared but as far as horn bass goes.
The reason it can get away with being so small for a horn sub is that it must be placed in a corner.
I may be too large for your apartment but it will allow a fully horn loaded system and cost a lot less than the Rythmik subs because you build them your self.
It is called the "Horn sub Jr"
William Cowan's Homepage
Dimensions 700x600x560 mm
One more thing, I found plans for a very small horn sub it is still little large compared but as far as horn bass goes.
The reason it can get away with being so small for a horn sub is that it must be placed in a corner.
I may be too large for your apartment but it will allow a fully horn loaded system and cost a lot less than the Rythmik subs because you build them your self.
It is called the "Horn sub Jr"
William Cowan's Homepage
Dimensions 700x600x560 mm
sorry audiomind ive been too busy to thank you for your wonderful input. your small horns look beautiful, and i wouldnt mind having them for my new speakers. but i also dont mind big, as i learned from my current speakers, there is no substitute for size! i used th have rythmik sub and youre right, theyre unbeatable. still, full sized la scalas are too much for an apartment, and even cornscala is no joke(i dont think it would sound as good, would it?) so once again, as i did months ago, im now considering dtqwt...
Glad to help, I had such lengthy replies because I was sort transferring my thoughts to type on ideas that are currently in my head.
I believe you are referring to Troels Gravesen design of the DTQWT?
DTQWT-mkII,
Not having heard the DTQWT but knowing from past experience using high sensitivity direct radiator drivers, I believe that the DTQWT is probably going to be one the closest sounds to a fully horn loaded speaker you are going to get with a direct radiator and although quite large it is not too bad.
I have had correspondence with Troels about speakers over email and he is a very good designer that knows his stuff for sure. He said that the DTQWT was his best design as he also designed the mid driver! Not many speaker builders can say that.
Troels DTQWT is a very safe bet for a DIY project as it is done by a respected designer and fully tested and also within your specified price. Please let us know what you think if you build them.
I believe you are referring to Troels Gravesen design of the DTQWT?
DTQWT-mkII,
Not having heard the DTQWT but knowing from past experience using high sensitivity direct radiator drivers, I believe that the DTQWT is probably going to be one the closest sounds to a fully horn loaded speaker you are going to get with a direct radiator and although quite large it is not too bad.
I have had correspondence with Troels about speakers over email and he is a very good designer that knows his stuff for sure. He said that the DTQWT was his best design as he also designed the mid driver! Not many speaker builders can say that.
Troels DTQWT is a very safe bet for a DIY project as it is done by a respected designer and fully tested and also within your specified price. Please let us know what you think if you build them.
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