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Old 2nd January 2013, 10:13 AM   #71
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SEdwards View Post
What do you guys think about focusing cash on the center channel and treating all others like 'surrounds'?
Yes why not. In 70's it was popular.

Here for example Salora Ortoperspekta:

SALORA orthoperspecta

Click the image to open in full size.



I think it depends on the matrix coefficients if the speakers should be more identical or if center speaker can be much different. For the matrix that emphasises 'surround' signal the speakers could be different, but if matrix tries to spread images evenly then speakers should be the same.


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Old 2nd January 2013, 10:28 AM   #72
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Thanks for the link. I've been enjoying matrixed center for the last week or so.

I've accepted that I'm always going to be building something new and doing them in pairs is not so convenient.

Also, only one excellent speaker is needed for recording impulses for headphone playback, where I think that the ultimate ceiling for fidelity is highest (at least at a reasonable cost).
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Old 2nd January 2013, 10:37 AM   #73
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I think 6dB is quite a lot of sound difference in perceptual sense.
If I'm not mistaken, Francis Rumsey compared commercial upmixers with listening tests. All upmixers were judged to degrade the front sound stage compared to stereo. But different people may have different sensitivities for this, or just focus their attention to different aspects of the sound. For me, the 6 dB separation is not enough.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 10:45 AM   #74
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by a_tewinkel View Post
If I'm not mistaken, Francis Rumsey compared commercial upmixers with listening tests. All upmixers were judged to degrade the front sound stage compared to stereo.
Got a link to the document ?

What was used as criteria ?
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Old 2nd January 2013, 11:13 AM   #75
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I'm getting very good results with L and R placed about 45 at the side walls (no center):

Click the image to open in full size.

Just speculation, but I believe the good performance has to do with the way the speakers perceptually couple to the room's reflection pattern.
The level and timing of the contralateral reflection seems to be crucial.
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Last edited by markus76; 2nd January 2013 at 11:24 AM.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 11:20 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Got a link to the document ?

What was used as criteria ?
This was mentioned in Toole's Sound Reproduction, page 289. I've just re-read the text. It says that "in general" the upmixers degraded the front sound stage, but it does not say that all of them did (my bad). Opinions varied somewhat according to that paragraph. The document is here (it's old by the way, 1999, so better algorithms have come along since then). I've been meaning to get a copy of it (and some other papers) from the university library here, but still haven't done that. Maybe that's a good new year's resolution Toole also mentiones a more recent comparison by Choisel and Wickelmaier, 2007.

Nevertheless, the standard linear-matrix upmixing is not something I preferred when I heard it.

Last edited by a_tewinkel; 2nd January 2013 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 2nd January 2013, 11:31 AM   #77
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Might be a good idea to get hold of those papers... perhaps there's a particular upmixer that is well-rated. A centre channel could be a very nice improvement when the source material is not heavily equalized to compensate for any crosstalk-related dullness...
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:06 PM   #78
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a_tewinkel View Post
This was mentioned in Toole's Sound Reproduction, page 289. I've just re-read the text. It says that "in general" the upmixers degraded the front sound stage, but it does not say that all of them did (my bad). Opinions varied somewhat according to that paragraph. The document is here (it's old by the way, 1999, so better algorithms have come along since then). I've been meaning to get a copy of it (and some other papers) from the university library here, but still haven't done that. Maybe that's a good new year's resolution Toole also mentiones a more recent comparison by Choisel and Wickelmaier, 2007.
They are refering to 2 channel to 5.1 surround decoders. They are completely different than 2 channel to 3 speaker matrixes. Usually the are not linear but employ all kinds of nonlinear processing to try to create the missing information for 5 speakers.

However if we have 3 speakers and they are in front the situation is very much easier.


Quote:
Originally Posted by a_tewinkel View Post
Nevertheless, the standard linear-matrix upmixing is not something I preferred when I heard it.
What is "standard" ? How many speakers ?


- Elias
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:10 PM   #79
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
I'm getting very good results with L and R placed about 45 at the side walls (no center):

What about head turning ?

And what about off center listeners ?


Have you tried to compare with center speaker ?
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Old 2nd January 2013, 01:50 PM   #80
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What about head turning ?

And what about off center listeners ?
Both a no-go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Have you tried to compare with center speaker ?
Not yet.
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