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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 28th September 2012, 01:00 AM   #161
badman is offline badman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
or it just lost its built in flex control mechanism, or inner damping
I believe only the really heavy coned subwoofer drivers have real pistonic behaviour

btw, it looks to me like quite many of the new pro woofer designs have severe breakup peak
probably due to stiffer cones
but I guess pro people dont care so much about a small peak, and like the stiff cone more
Well, it's still in breakup mode when it's self-damping, it's just controlled, damped breakup.

I think with the pro stuff, dsp is so prevalent that out of band peaks are simply a non-issue.
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Old 28th September 2012, 03:45 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by JR-W View Post
I have a pair of NIB AE TD18H+ woofers I'd sure like to incorporate into somebody else's big build.
I think there are three ways to love the Lambda TD18H+ as a BASS woofer:
1) Use a LARGE solid state amp plus digital crossovers with digital room equalization to BEAT THE BRUTE TO YOUR WILL.
2) Simulate your room gain effects and shove the cabinet against the back wall, or into a corner, with a custom equalized crossover to obtain good quality low bass.
3) Build a LARGE rear bass horn.

GO'ing large allows a cabinet width of 26"-32" which allows the bass-midbass crossover to also cover the baffle step compensation. This both simplifies the Xover and allows the midbass to push its maximum SPL/watt efficiency.
==========
I think there are several reasons the engineers at Altec and JBL built large speakers around a 10" midbass like the JBL 2012H:
1) 10" is capable of covering the vocal range or 80-100Hz to 1100-1300Hz
2) 10" is capable of 95-97db/watt efficiency
3) 10" has a polar response ~90 degrees at 1100-1300Hz, which mates well with a 90x40 horn/waveguide that is recommended for multi-seat home audio.
4) Golden ear reviewers of JBL 2012H and Lambda TD10M midbass speakers say YES.
Attached Images
File Type: gif TD18H.gif (14.0 KB, 505 views)
File Type: jpg LargeThreeWay.jpg (86.1 KB, 511 views)
File Type: jpg MidBass_TS.jpg (119.8 KB, 502 views)

Last edited by LineSource; 28th September 2012 at 03:52 AM.
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Old 28th September 2012, 11:23 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
GO'ing large allows a cabinet width of 26"-32" which allows the bass-midbass crossover to also cover the baffle step compensation. This both simplifies the Xover and allows the midbass to push its maximum SPL/watt efficiency.
==========
I think there are several reasons the engineers at Altec and JBL built large speakers around a 10" midbass like the JBL 2012H:
1) 10" is capable of covering the vocal range or 80-100Hz to 1100-1300Hz
2) 10" is capable of 95-97db/watt efficiency
3) 10" has a polar response ~90 degrees at 1100-1300Hz, which mates well with a 90x40 horn/waveguide that is recommended for multi-seat home audio.
4) Golden ear reviewers of JBL 2012H and Lambda TD10M midbass speakers say YES.
10inch seems preferable but maybe thats lust rather than thoughtful selection

Can't quite stretch to the Lambda's at the moment. But I notice it is low mms, very low qts and high dB/w/m, meaning Bruce Lee speed and control but not enough weight & power for the 'one inch punch'?

What sound difference would this have to a heavier cone with a middling qts of say 0.35? And as for polar response - theres another hat in the ring Will look it up but any explanations welcome
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Old 28th September 2012, 12:20 PM   #164
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Bruce Lee's light weight did not stop him from delivering a killer one-inch punch. The 10 inches with very strong motor, Qts<0.25 and Fs>60Hz will really start to get a higher f3 in the small sealed cavity, so it's a matter of modelling what fits your need. But I do believe that the higher sensitivity, low Qts and low Mms will deliver the most dynamic performance and plenty of punch.

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Old 28th September 2012, 12:36 PM   #165
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How about a Volt 2500.5 for the 10"?
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Old 28th September 2012, 12:54 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IG81 View Post
Bruce Lee's light weight did not stop him from delivering a killer one-inch punch. The 10 inches with very strong motor, Qts<0.25 and Fs>60Hz will really start to get a higher f3 in the small sealed cavity, so it's a matter of modelling what fits your need. But I do believe that the higher sensitivity, low Qts and low Mms will deliver the most dynamic performance and plenty of punch.

IG
no messing with Mr Lee! Even if the punch is delivered with enough speed & force isn't the weight (Mms) important? Or is that just low bass? Is this one of the differences between mid & bass drivers?

I very much appreciate your help with this IG
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Old 28th September 2012, 01:15 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
I really love the videos of HUGE JBL's and big ol' Altecs on various sites. The sheer size of the cabinets and visceral presence of the sound they seem, and are reported to produce is intriguing and 'lust worthy'. Especially the big 4350 & 4355 and Kenrick Sounds own 4351 (a vertically arranged 4355)
What is emphasized, from the music being conveyed through UTube, is the acoustics of rooms too-small for the loudspeakers units placed in them. As far as loudspeaker design is concerned, JBL's versions of Ranger's Paragon and Hartsfield’s corner horn outshine them all. For the ultimate in performance, the products from TAD have few peers. For all the cases presented here, the room acoustics is killing sound quality; thus, the cost of largeness, constitutes a misdirected expenditure.

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Old 28th September 2012, 01:45 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRKO View Post
no messing with Mr Lee! Even if the punch is delivered with enough speed & force isn't the weight (Mms) important? Or is that just low bass? Is this one of the differences between mid & bass drivers?

I very much appreciate your help with this IG
IMO, a light Mms can be punchier. The heavy cones are often used to get Fs down and produce more bass, at the expense of upper-bass and midrange sensitivity. There are upsides and downsides to this, as everything in audio is a tradeoff, I just think the ups outweight the downs, for my preferences.

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Old 28th September 2012, 02:28 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whgeiger View Post
What is emphasized, from the music being conveyed through UTube, is the acoustics of rooms too-small for the loudspeakers units placed in them.
I know that no matter the quality of the recording & sound equipment (& Kenrick Sounds uses HIGH quality gear mounted on a FigRig) the sound of a loudspeaker cannot then be reproduced with another amp & speakers. Also the room in which the recordings are made is a large commercial space so at least when recorded they are being played in an adequate space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whgeiger View Post
As far as loudspeaker design is concerned, JBL's versions of Ranger's Paragon and Hartsfield’s corner horn outshine them all. For the ultimate in performance, the products from TAD have few peers.
What is it about corner horn/placement that makes it better? Again, high cost drivers are not going to appear in this project. I just don't have the funds available

Quote:
Originally Posted by whgeiger View Post
For all the cases presented here, the room acoustics is killing sound quality; thus, the cost of largeness, constitutes a misdirected expenditure.
What do you mean 'for all the cases presented here?' So big speakers are a fail no matter what?
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Old 28th September 2012, 03:40 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by IG81 View Post
IMO, a light Mms can be punchier.
My ears prefer a good transient response over the bottom octave. Mind you I don't watch movies so that might be part of it.
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