Western Electric 1928 - How far have we come in the last 100 years?

[speaker dave]

Originally Posted by bear

Dave!

It's not in the "coverage" or the "octaves", or any other parameter.
Where the holy grail lies is in effortless and natural sound.

Fwiw, there is a *movie theater* that I know of - a true hole in the wall - that has a 100% WE sound system behind the screen!

Effortless and natural. That's the whole game as far as I am concerned. I have yet to hear a "PA/SR" anytime in the last 40 years that came close to that.

_-_-bear

I'm okay with the concept that a vintage unit may fall behind in objective parameters yet have an appealing rightness to the sound. Its just that anytime I've heard any speaker from the 60's or earlier, no matter what the reputation that proceeded, the sound was always a disappointment totally on the grounds of naturalness.

Old speakers weren't flat. The horns were inherently non-flat and varied at every angle. Crossovers came out of a design table and had no regard for the actual driver shapes or how sections might add in a point in space, so the final systems weren't flat. Not even for a few Octaves in the middle which might let voices sound natural.

I love audio design history and read everything old that I can find. There wasn't much ability to measure and plot frequency response before WW2. The only real exception I know of is Hilliard and the gang at Altec, well after the Western Electric era had peaked. (At the RKO ranch)

As much magic as we would like to ascribe to older technology, put one of these units behind a curtain next to a modern equivalent and I guarantee you will laugh out loud every time you switch to the older unit. (Due to its retrograde performance.)

I know, I've done it.

David S.

[Steve Eddy]

Originally Posted by Cal Weldon

OK, I was not aware. I thought it was simply polyoxybenzylmethylenglycolanhydride and that's it.

The trademark for Bakelite was first filed in 1908. Its G&S was given as: CONDENSATION PRODUCTS OF PHENOL AND FORMALDEHYDE. And it's phenol formaldehyde resins that we most commonly and generically refer to in this context as "phenolic." So whether it's a knob, or the diaphragm of a compression driver, it wouldn't be inappropriate to call it "Bakelite."

se

[Cal Weldon]

Well alrightee then.

[system7]

Originally Posted by Steve Eddy

The trademark for Bakelite was first filed in 1908. Its G&S was given as: CONDENSATION PRODUCTS OF PHENOL AND FORMALDEHYDE. And it's phenol formaldehyde resins that we most commonly and generically refer to in this context as "phenolic." So whether it's a knob, or the diaphragm of a compression driver, it wouldn't be inappropriate to call it "Bakelite."

se

What rubbish. It's made from milk curdled with vinegar which is pretty much like cottage cheese. Rinsed under the tap and then squeezed into whatever shape you want. I made a napkin ring as part of my relentless investigation of chemistry. After a couple of weeks of soaking in smelly formaldehyde solution and shrinking to about 2/3 of the original size, it sets into a hardish solid napkin ring. They used to make telephones and ashtrays out of it too.

I enjoyed the video about the 50% efficient Western Electric horn speaker. The fact is that horns couple the diaphragm to the air incredibly well. The coil and diaphragm hardly moves at all, but the air in the horn moves A LOT. So it probably doesn't much matter what the diaphragm is made of.

[LafeEric]

Originally Posted by Cal Weldon

Well alrightee then.

Yep, pretty much!

[Zen Mod]

WE sucks !

Altec sucks !

[speaker dave]

Originally Posted by system7

What rubbish. It's made from milk curdled with vinegar which is pretty much like cottage cheese. Rinsed under the tap and then squeezed into whatever shape you want. I made a napkin ring as part of my relentless investigation of chemistry. After a couple of weeks of soaking in smelly formaldehyde solution and shrinking to about 2/3 of the original size, it sets into a hardish solid napkin ring. They used to make telephones and ashtrays out of it too.

What?! Western Electric diaphragms were made from milk curdled with vinegar?

That does sound cheesy.

David

[Pano]

Originally Posted by speaker dave

I've never heard a Western Electric speaker. I know they get obscene money for them and I also respect the engineering and construction quality that went into them, but do I really think they would surpass anything similar from today? No way!

Well Dave, I've actually heard the big W.E. systems and the related Vitaphone systems. There just isn't anything similar today, so it's apples and oranges.
Within their limits, I've never heard anything better.

Sure, what we have today is louder, stronger, cheaper, smaller and much of it has has more bandwidth (if done as a multiway) but it doesn't sound anywhere near as good, open or natural within its bandwidth.

I do agree with you about vintage sources, recording techniques and some of the amps, but the top of the line Western Electric speakers? No. What they managed to do back in the 20s remains amazing, even to this day. Nothing I've heard can compare for SQ.

[a.wayne]

Originally Posted by speaker dave

I'm okay with the concept that a vintage unit may fall behind in objective parameters yet have an appealing rightness to the sound. Its just that anytime I've heard any speaker from the 60's or earlier, no matter what the reputation that proceeded, the sound was always a disappointment totally on the grounds of naturalness.

Old speakers weren't flat. The horns were inherently non-flat and varied at every angle. Crossovers came out of a design table and had no regard for the actual driver shapes or how sections might add in a point in space, so the final systems weren't flat. Not even for a few Octaves in the middle which might let voices sound natural.

I love audio design history and read everything old that I can find. There wasn't much ability to measure and plot frequency response before WW2. The only real exception I know of is Hilliard and the gang at Altec, well after the Western Electric era had peaked. (At the RKO ranch)

As much magic as we would like to ascribe to older technology, put one of these units behind a curtain next to a modern equivalent and I guarantee you will laugh out loud every time you switch to the older unit. (Due to its retrograde performance.)

I know, I've done it.

David S.

You must be talking about horns , even modern ones sound as you describe , not so for quads ,leak , KLH, and others from that era ....

[Steve Eddy]

Originally Posted by system7

What rubbish. It's made from milk curdled with vinegar which is pretty much like cottage cheese. Rinsed under the tap and then squeezed into whatever shape you want. I made a napkin ring as part of my relentless investigation of chemistry. After a couple of weeks of soaking in smelly formaldehyde solution and shrinking to about 2/3 of the original size, it sets into a hardish solid napkin ring. They used to make telephones and ashtrays out of it too.

Yeah, it's pretty cool stuff.

I remember my grandparents used to have some of these old Daka-Ware (yet another trade name for phenolic) ash trays made by Davies.



Coming full circle, I'm using these big-*** (What? I thought some more sensible folks made the nanny filter here a bit less absurd. Guess not) Davies Daka-Ware knobs on my headphone amp.



se