Hey guys, i have been working on a 3 way monitor design the last couple of days on and off.
My goals are pretty simple.
High effeciency without the use of a horn. I am hopping for 95db/1w/1m or higher.
Now, I am also thinking a MTW Idea with this:
X1-04 EXOTIC F8
for the midrange but I would go with something else if I can find something better....however, it is the best I have found so far. I was trying to look at scan-speak drivers but my computer wasnt opening the PDF files for the drivers.
I was also planning on only using a 10" for the woofer as I dont plan on going too low as I prefer the use of a subwoofer for the lower range.
Then for the tweeter I plan on ribbon. Maybe an LCY or RAAL? Those are a little more pricey and the only other ones I know of are on parts express and i dont know how good they are.
In this design I was working on having one port dedicated to the woofer part of the box and have it sperated from the rest. Maybe even telescope it out and have the port come out the top to make sure it is tuned perfectly.
The rest can be sealed or ported, whatever is going to sound better.
The other part of the design that I was working on is that the center channel that could go with this would use the same drivers but the box could just have a different shape that is better suited for being under a TV.
A minidsp would be used as the crossover so you can also put in a high pass to better control the crossover for your subwoofer.
So what does everyone think? What other things should I consider?
My goals are pretty simple.
High effeciency without the use of a horn. I am hopping for 95db/1w/1m or higher.
Now, I am also thinking a MTW Idea with this:
X1-04 EXOTIC F8
for the midrange but I would go with something else if I can find something better....however, it is the best I have found so far. I was trying to look at scan-speak drivers but my computer wasnt opening the PDF files for the drivers.
I was also planning on only using a 10" for the woofer as I dont plan on going too low as I prefer the use of a subwoofer for the lower range.
Then for the tweeter I plan on ribbon. Maybe an LCY or RAAL? Those are a little more pricey and the only other ones I know of are on parts express and i dont know how good they are.
In this design I was working on having one port dedicated to the woofer part of the box and have it sperated from the rest. Maybe even telescope it out and have the port come out the top to make sure it is tuned perfectly.
The rest can be sealed or ported, whatever is going to sound better.
The other part of the design that I was working on is that the center channel that could go with this would use the same drivers but the box could just have a different shape that is better suited for being under a TV.
A minidsp would be used as the crossover so you can also put in a high pass to better control the crossover for your subwoofer.
So what does everyone think? What other things should I consider?
It's a planar, but not a true ribbon.
Don't forget, even if efficiency is high, drivers can still hit their mechanical limits. Thermal compression is only one form of power compression.
I would go with a 12", even if you plan to use a subwoofer. That way you can seal it and still get the necessary extension, whereas most 10s won't hit that 80hz - 100hz mark without another resonator.
The RAAL 70-10 is only around 92db sensitive. You'd need to step up to the RAAL 140-15 or go active to hit the 95db target. I know you said you don't wanna use a horn, but i'd consider this Planar:
Creative Sound - Product Details
I'd stick to sealed. It will allow you to maximize power handling without using a crossover to the subwoofer.
Well, if you're using the Planar2 or the Beyma TPL-150 horn version, their ability to allow a sub-1khz crossover point means you can flank them the left and right in an MTM, and yet not get the serious lobing issue typical of horizontal MTMs. A traditional WTM is probably still optimal, but unrealsitic from a size perspective.
to be 100% honest I did not think of horned ribbons....when I think of horns I am thinking of compression drivers.
I will look into the 12" drivers more then. the sealed design does allow for lower extension. However is it possible to get that sensitivity that I want sealed? From all of the readings that I have done all the sensitive designs were ported.
Thats good to know about the lobbing issues with those tweeters. That was my biggest concern with the typical MTM center design. I personally dont understand why they is such a standard when there are design flaws with it.
I was thinking that the mid would handle the voice range of about 300hz to 3khz. then the tweeter for the rest or would that be the rest....is that not as optimal as I had planned?
good thing is that Sealed is an easier build than ported designs....
I will look into the 12" drivers more then. the sealed design does allow for lower extension. However is it possible to get that sensitivity that I want sealed? From all of the readings that I have done all the sensitive designs were ported.
Thats good to know about the lobbing issues with those tweeters. That was my biggest concern with the typical MTM center design. I personally dont understand why they is such a standard when there are design flaws with it.
I was thinking that the mid would handle the voice range of about 300hz to 3khz. then the tweeter for the rest or would that be the rest....is that not as optimal as I had planned?
good thing is that Sealed is an easier build than ported designs....
The vent only extends response at the bottom of the passband. It should not be "improving" sensitivity in the main operating area of the speaker. Now finding a good 12" driver that can hit the 80-100hz mark while having high efficiency and powerful dynamics will take some patience and modeling. I know an AE TD12X will do it, but there are other options too.
It's a standard because it's "convenient". My preference is towards WCW centers (A coaxial flanked by two woofers). But if your mains don't use compression drivers, getting a good tonal match would be tricky to a WCW.
It's ideal, yet it's not optimal.
The reason for this, is that no midrange driver can handle that range, with good power handling but ALSO decent dispersion to mate to a tweeter.
If you really wanna do it right, accept that the crossover has to be in the voice range, but make it a good crossover.
One driver I'd recommend as a mid, by the way, regardless of the tweeter and woofer you choose, is the BG Neo10. I don't know for sure what passband i'd use it in though.
Now that CSS Planar should have some directivity control above 2khz so that's one option. You could consider a 10" midwoofer mated to the beyma TPL... Make it a 2.5way TMM to keep sensitivity high.
Less room for error, and smaller box size requirements, but you'll need to evaluate a variety of 12" woofers before making any commitments, as some might not have the necessary extension.
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One forum member did not like the (non-whizer) version of that Seas driver, though did like Alnico Seas tweeter..
How efficient do you want it and how large are you willing to go (particularly with respect to baffle width)? With respect to baffle-size, perhaps I should say how low do you want it to go, or what crossover freq. do you anticipate for your "subs"? (..this is all in relation to baffle-step loss.)
How efficient do you want it and how large are you willing to go (particularly with respect to baffle width)? With respect to baffle-size, perhaps I should say how low do you want it to go, or what crossover freq. do you anticipate for your "subs"? (..this is all in relation to baffle-step loss.)
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the size of area that I can take up in the entertainment center is 19" Wide, 19" deep, and 27" tall. I should probably plan on a slightly thinner box of 17.5" wide or 18" wide so that I can angle them toward the seating positions. It is a pretty small room but it is an open floor plan so it isn't sealed at all.
Rock, I had actually considered doing a WCW for all the front channels but decided against it because of the fact that I head read that the crossover with a coaxial driver is very difficult on AVS and also because of the fact that ribbons have always been interesting to me. One of my first "high end" audio experiences was with a pair of martin logans and I was blown away by their clarity and sound. However, the Wilsons that I heard after that were even better sounding.....therefore, I have decided that the WCW design will be my next project and I can compare what I like the sound of better. Maybe what I will do is just a pair of this 3 way design. this way I will not waste time and money on a center and can then build some JTR T8 or maybe T10 design sooner rather than later and whatever I like more for movies will stay in the family room and what is left will be used for my office.....not too sure.
The problem with the TMM 2.5 design is that the tweetter would then be far above ear level in my entertainment center and I would not be able to put them anywhere else. I can try and take a picture of my family room and post it on here....need to find my camera though. Also, from my experiences atleast I prefer the sound of an almost exagerated soundstage with the mid at the top of the case.
I also must have misunderstood what the book i read was talking about then when it comes to porting a box. It increases sensitivity before the steep roll off there at the end of its range.....if that is correct.
Maybe I should change gears and look more heavily into some coax drivers? I know they are supposed to be good for dynamics and JTR were originally meant for music too. I'll will certainly look into them more but I will admit that due to some past experiences I want to try that ribbon/pleated diaphram more than anything.
btw, B&C seem to have alot of high sensitivity drivers in the 12" range. Does anyone know how good their drivers are? I have read alot about them on AVS but not sure if they would be good in this type of application. I need to find all the simulations to run on my computer to find the right drivers too....
Tweeter: Fountek Neo Pro 5i
scroll down to see it here:
Supravox 215GMFHow to tweak this driver to better performance
Midrange: PHL Audio 2521
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/PHL_2521-FR.gif
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/PHL_2521-FR-offaxis-0-15-30-45-60.gif
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/PHL_2521-HD.gif
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/PHL_2521-IMP-2.gif
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/PHL_2521-CSD.gif
http://www.zaphaudio.com/temp/PHL_2521-TS.gif
Bass driver: 18 Sound 15W500
15W500 - LF Ferrite Driver
Baffle 17 inches wide, 27 inches tall.
Bass driver in a sealed volume of 3.5 cubic feet
Midrange in a cardboard tube "bisecting" the cabinet and open to the rear of the loudspeaker with an aperiodic "vent".
Ribbon tweeter on top of loudspeaker with a vertical "cylinder" shell for lower horizontal diffraction. Also, with the ability to "aim" relative to listeners vertically (...particularly useful for a driver with a narrow vertical dispersion pattern.)
Steep crossover around 1.3 kHz for tweeter to mid.
Note: because the tweeter is basically "on top of" the loudspeaker cabinet with a TMW configuration, that it's vertically higher than what you have spec'ed.
How big volume do you accept?
A very nice studio woofer is the beyma 12b100r 94db and still compact size, when placed near the floor 96 db is possible with wide baffle. The nicest 15" they have is the 15lx60v2 30hz cuttoff and still high efficient about 96dB.
there is a nice 8" of beyma and 18sound, paudio. And a nice 6" of 18sound and b&c. for high efficiency you will need 8" to 10".
Then I would look for a nice 1,4" hf driver rcf or fatialpro, bms or beyma.
And use for tweeter janzen-superior-z or similar quality and attenuate with metal-film resistors not wire wound.
A very nice studio woofer is the beyma 12b100r 94db and still compact size, when placed near the floor 96 db is possible with wide baffle. The nicest 15" they have is the 15lx60v2 30hz cuttoff and still high efficient about 96dB.
there is a nice 8" of beyma and 18sound, paudio. And a nice 6" of 18sound and b&c. for high efficiency you will need 8" to 10".
Then I would look for a nice 1,4" hf driver rcf or fatialpro, bms or beyma.
And use for tweeter janzen-superior-z or similar quality and attenuate with metal-film resistors not wire wound.
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A idea 2(3) way wtw setup.
Two beyma 12b100r.
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/12B100-RE.pdf
Tweeter rcf nd650.
RCF - ND650
Horn hf64 with cutout for close woofer placement.
RCF - HF64
XO about 750-850Hz and a 95dB 1wmtr efficiency
And ad a supertweeter to make it 3Way. CP21.http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/CP21F.pdf
Two beyma 12b100r.
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/12B100-RE.pdf
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Tweeter rcf nd650.
RCF - ND650
Horn hf64 with cutout for close woofer placement.
RCF - HF64
XO about 750-850Hz and a 95dB 1wmtr efficiency
And ad a supertweeter to make it 3Way. CP21.http://profesional.beyma.com/ingles/pdf/CP21F.pdf
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They are very good drivers, but usually only good in ported boxes. I use their products a lot.
Oh, ok.
Helmuth, thanks for all those suggestions. The size that I have to work with is about 19" wide by 19" deep by 27" tall. However, i would like to get the width down so I can angle the speaker to the seating position so probably 17.5" is the width I am looking at. We were talking about ported vs. sealed earlier in this thread and I think I am going to go with a sealed design with the tpl-150 and I have been doing alot of looking on the beyma website and this mid looks like a really good option to go with it:
Beyma 8MI100 8" midrange speaker. Beyma 8MI100 8" 500 watt midrange speaker for all pro high quality midrange applications.
or
Beyma Speakers - Beyma 6MI90 midrange speaker - Beyma 6MI90 200 watt 6.5" speaker for all midrange applications. Beyma 6MI90 6.5" midrange speaker and other Beyma speakers here.
still looking at the 12" drivers....and the SEAS driver is still an option but I just like the fact that the beyma can have sensitivity close to the tpl-150. However, does the flat foam surround have much limitation on it? Or is it just making sure not to overdrive them?
This one is in my opinion the best 8" driver of beyma.http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/8LW30E.pdf
Close to specs of the 1200 dollar accuton accuton® Carefully selected loudspeaker drivers.
The 12br100 is a very nice 12" to get sub-low and sensitivity. When you want to get more then 95dB you need 15". the 130 liter is enough.
nice 15" is the usher 15HM studio.
And a very special midrange is the hda-cone audax. AUDAX HM210Z10
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Helmuth, How low are you talking about going with high sensitivity? My goal is only about 60-70hz at most....granted if I could go lower that is always great....but I plan for my subwoofers to take it on from there.
I was under the impression that it is possible to get good sensitivity with a 12" woofer in that range....I think the more difficult thing to do is actually being able to find one that can go from 60-70hz to about 150-250hz to cross over cleanly.
P.s. I have been looking at the numbers and going with the ribbon is definitly more expensive than if I made some JTR T8 clones or T10s with the beyma coaxial drivers which looked really nice.....so what does that mean? I better plan out both designs first and then present both to the boss (my wife) and see which one she approves of.....crossing my fingers for the ribbon/pleated diaphram to be the winner....but this is a ways down the road, I may sell my 1972 Mustang to finance this anyways....its uninsured right now anyways so I cant drive it.....well i could, but id die if something happened.
Edit,
That audax mid looks nice! If you guys keep throwing this driver porn at me ill just continue to drool and not get any work done.
I was under the impression that it is possible to get good sensitivity with a 12" woofer in that range....I think the more difficult thing to do is actually being able to find one that can go from 60-70hz to about 150-250hz to cross over cleanly.
P.s. I have been looking at the numbers and going with the ribbon is definitly more expensive than if I made some JTR T8 clones or T10s with the beyma coaxial drivers which looked really nice.....so what does that mean? I better plan out both designs first and then present both to the boss (my wife) and see which one she approves of.....crossing my fingers for the ribbon/pleated diaphram to be the winner....but this is a ways down the road, I may sell my 1972 Mustang to finance this anyways....its uninsured right now anyways so I cant drive it.....well i could, but id die if something happened.
Edit,
That audax mid looks nice! If you guys keep throwing this driver porn at me ill just continue to drool and not get any work done.
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