Most available drivers in the 6,5" to 7" range have ts-parameters optimized for the use in vented enclosures. Somehow I think for a really nice sounding low frequency range sealed enclosures might (theoretically) be better!
There is the low-efficiency-problem with such a design, though.
That's why I would like to construct a 2,5 way with 6,5" drivers that work really good in sealed enclosures around 20 l. Until now, I wasn't able to find such a driver. Btw., it has to be good in the midrange, too! A smooth response that allows simple crossovers is what I'm looking for.
Any suggestions or experiences?
Thanks a lot!
There is the low-efficiency-problem with such a design, though.
That's why I would like to construct a 2,5 way with 6,5" drivers that work really good in sealed enclosures around 20 l. Until now, I wasn't able to find such a driver. Btw., it has to be good in the midrange, too! A smooth response that allows simple crossovers is what I'm looking for.
Any suggestions or experiences?
Thanks a lot!
Driver for closed box should have low Fs (if low bass is needed) and quite high Qts (0,4-0,5). Seas CA18RLY/U18RNX/P might be choice from Seas.
If you are using 2.5-way, you can think of lower Qts (stronger motor, smaller box) and compensate decending bass response with 0,5 driver.
20 liters is too small for 2,5-way (2x6,5"), though depending of driver used.
If you are using 2.5-way, you can think of lower Qts (stronger motor, smaller box) and compensate decending bass response with 0,5 driver.
20 liters is too small for 2,5-way (2x6,5"), though depending of driver used.
Thanks for your reply!
I also had the Seas CA18RLY in mind but I was unsure about its light and thin paper cone. In my experience, those cones do not produce that much "punch" in the low frequency range.
With a volume of around 20l I meant for each driver.
Another driver I found that is supposed to work quite well in sealed enclosures is the Monacor SPH-170. A very versatile driver with a smooth frequency response and a f3 of 60Hz in 25l sealed. But certainly a bit less "high end" than the Seas drivers, even though the Monacors aren't cheap at all.
I also had the Seas CA18RLY in mind but I was unsure about its light and thin paper cone. In my experience, those cones do not produce that much "punch" in the low frequency range.
With a volume of around 20l I meant for each driver.
Another driver I found that is supposed to work quite well in sealed enclosures is the Monacor SPH-170. A very versatile driver with a smooth frequency response and a f3 of 60Hz in 25l sealed. But certainly a bit less "high end" than the Seas drivers, even though the Monacors aren't cheap at all.
This chinese driver W6-1721 ?. I own it little brother W5-1685, a low distortion driver. I would like it more lively but it is my taste.
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w6-1721.htm (17L)
If you can ? An other world class but the crossover is not simple.
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - E0018-08S W18E001 (17L for one)
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - E0051-04/06 C16N001/F (15L) See the application note.
The best f3=50Hz, the price too is high.
18W/8531G00 (20L) Scan-Speak
Most of drivers are optimized for BR but some of them could be used in the two configurations.
Note I think you can have good results with an optimized BR. I don't like BR a lot but with the new drivers like SEAS ER18RNX, W18RNX, the bass is very good, tight, no slow down.
2x17cm ~ 20cm ? less expensive. e.g.
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - H1288-08 CA22RNX ?
Note the CA22RNY in a BR box can give you 90dB : http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=173&Itemid=165
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1230_04/w6-1721.htm (17L)
If you can ? An other world class but the crossover is not simple.
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - E0018-08S W18E001 (17L for one)
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - E0051-04/06 C16N001/F (15L) See the application note.
The best f3=50Hz, the price too is high.
18W/8531G00 (20L) Scan-Speak
Most of drivers are optimized for BR but some of them could be used in the two configurations.
Note I think you can have good results with an optimized BR. I don't like BR a lot but with the new drivers like SEAS ER18RNX, W18RNX, the bass is very good, tight, no slow down.
2x17cm ~ 20cm ? less expensive. e.g.
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - H1288-08 CA22RNX ?
Note the CA22RNY in a BR box can give you 90dB : http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=173&Itemid=165
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Why searching for drivers able to be "enclosed" since you can have the best of both worlds with drivers made for vented enclosures? Please read this:
Sealed_v_Vented
Moreover: I often tune my vented systems by adding acoustat stuff inside the box; however this trick needs impedance measurements to be sure where we are going.
Sealed_v_Vented
Moreover: I often tune my vented systems by adding acoustat stuff inside the box; however this trick needs impedance measurements to be sure where we are going.
Hi Jerome!
Well, about some of your (much appreciated!) ideas:
I'm not that fond of those very high-end Seas drivers with magnesium cones etc. I'm of the oppinion that too much "high end" leads to a very accurate but somehow artificial sound, especially with some older, partially badly recorded rock music from the 70's. I'm really into this kind of music. You know, the old Genesis, Led Zeppelin/Robert Plant, Sweet Smoke, Focus, Nektar to name just a few. For this kind of music it's neccessary that a speaker is a bit more forgiving about the source signal
The Scan Speak may be one the best solutions by all means, but it's simply way out of my price range. Let's not even talk about TWO of these drivers per side...
Regarding the Seas ER18RNX I already read Mark K's page about the ER18DXT. While I would love to build this one, I don't really like the idea of a baffle step compensated driver. That's why I thought about the 2,5 way approach. But, nevertheless, Mark's design would make a nice starting point for a modified version: The ER18DXT with an additional woofer for BSC!
With the Seas H1288 you gave me an idea: Why not using two 8-inchers per side, say, 30l sealed cabinet individually for each driver, 2,5 way to fill up the baffle step loss and add a horn loaded tweeter or a waveguide? I HAVE to think about that for a while. The Seas H1288 seems to be a proper chioce for this allignment, despite the peak around 3kHz. (Perhaps a notch filter would help?)
The H1471 seems to have a better roll off but it's more suited to a ported enclosure I'd guess.
Crazyhub:
Nice article! It seems I have to try out more different vented designs, e.g. alter the tuning frequency to see what happens soundwise. Thanks for the link!
Well, about some of your (much appreciated!) ideas:
I'm not that fond of those very high-end Seas drivers with magnesium cones etc. I'm of the oppinion that too much "high end" leads to a very accurate but somehow artificial sound, especially with some older, partially badly recorded rock music from the 70's. I'm really into this kind of music. You know, the old Genesis, Led Zeppelin/Robert Plant, Sweet Smoke, Focus, Nektar to name just a few. For this kind of music it's neccessary that a speaker is a bit more forgiving about the source signal
The Scan Speak may be one the best solutions by all means, but it's simply way out of my price range. Let's not even talk about TWO of these drivers per side...
Regarding the Seas ER18RNX I already read Mark K's page about the ER18DXT. While I would love to build this one, I don't really like the idea of a baffle step compensated driver. That's why I thought about the 2,5 way approach. But, nevertheless, Mark's design would make a nice starting point for a modified version: The ER18DXT with an additional woofer for BSC!
With the Seas H1288 you gave me an idea: Why not using two 8-inchers per side, say, 30l sealed cabinet individually for each driver, 2,5 way to fill up the baffle step loss and add a horn loaded tweeter or a waveguide? I HAVE to think about that for a while. The Seas H1288 seems to be a proper chioce for this allignment, despite the peak around 3kHz. (Perhaps a notch filter would help?)
The H1471 seems to have a better roll off but it's more suited to a ported enclosure I'd guess.
Crazyhub:
Nice article! It seems I have to try out more different vented designs, e.g. alter the tuning frequency to see what happens soundwise. Thanks for the link!
Martin,
The classic seas paper is very forgiving
I used the ER18RNX, a very nice driver, in a MTM not a 2.5, 30L@43Hz, 91dB/2.83V. I was impressed by the very tight bass. The tweeter is the monacor DT300+WG http://i23.servimg.com/u/f23/11/13/40/71/img_0110.jpg
I also know the CA22RNX, H1288, in a 2.5, 91dB/2.83V. The 3KHz peak can be suppress with a notch filter. The crossover could be simple LR2 2.2KHz. A tweeter with 90-91dB could do the trick.
You can go to a 3.5 or 3 ways, add a 5" midrange, The MCA 15 ? You will have a big speaker
Projet ASTASIA I -Seas CA22RNX + MCA15RCY + Vifa XT25TG30 - Enceintes
Poor Man'
3-Way Classic
Let us know your final choice
The classic seas paper is very forgiving
I used the ER18RNX, a very nice driver, in a MTM not a 2.5, 30L@43Hz, 91dB/2.83V. I was impressed by the very tight bass. The tweeter is the monacor DT300+WG http://i23.servimg.com/u/f23/11/13/40/71/img_0110.jpg
I also know the CA22RNX, H1288, in a 2.5, 91dB/2.83V. The 3KHz peak can be suppress with a notch filter. The crossover could be simple LR2 2.2KHz. A tweeter with 90-91dB could do the trick.
You can go to a 3.5 or 3 ways, add a 5" midrange, The MCA 15 ? You will have a big speaker
Projet ASTASIA I -Seas CA22RNX + MCA15RCY + Vifa XT25TG30 - Enceintes
Poor Man'
3-Way Classic
Let us know your final choice
Hey Dave,
now this is an interesting driver!
Did you listen to it fullrange? How is the midrange from these, and how does this nasty behaviour in the range from 600 to 1200Hz sound? Too bad there is no waterfall diagram shown in the datasheet.
Perhaps this one would be nice combined with the CSS EL70PLUSERT26 fullrange plus tweeter-kit?
I've not used it higher than ~400 Hz (1st order). In this kind of ap it is superb. Add a good midtweeter (ie FF85, A6P) and you have a really good 2-way.
The mod-podge mod mostly eliminates the ugliness from 600 up, and also increases DDR.
red is modded driver, yellow stock.
dave
The mod-podge mod mostly eliminates the ugliness from 600 up, and also increases DDR.
red is modded driver, yellow stock.
dave
Attachments
how about the peerless ?
830883 - Peerless HDS-180EXCL Nomex diaphragm, 33 mm coil, AL, CU, LS, Phaseplug - Europe Audio
830883 - Peerless HDS-180EXCL Nomex diaphragm, 33 mm coil, AL, CU, LS, Phaseplug - Europe Audio
Hi,
The trouble with a 6.5" driver that works well in a 20L sealed box,
on the large size for a 6.5", is it won't work that well in anything else.
Vented boxes would be ~ double, more suited to bigger drivers.
2.5 way : Zaph|Audio - ZRT - Revelator Tower meets your requirements.
rgds, sreten.
The trouble with a 6.5" driver that works well in a 20L sealed box,
on the large size for a 6.5", is it won't work that well in anything else.
Vented boxes would be ~ double, more suited to bigger drivers.
2.5 way : Zaph|Audio - ZRT - Revelator Tower meets your requirements.
rgds, sreten.
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You have quite a tuning. 36 l @ 20 Hz!! How long tube?
Try real world tuning like 36 @ 38 Hz or something like that.You have quite a tuning. 36 l @ 20 Hz!! How long tube?
Try real world tuning like 36 @ 38 Hz or something like that.
Hi, You seem to have missed the real point, the numbers don't matter, rgds, sreten.
Of course in a practical implementation they do, and they should be realistic.
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You could try the Aurasound NS6. Works well sealed, high efficiency, clean midrange and $11 a pop to boot.
Used with a 1st order crossover and BR cabinet in this rather pricey commercial design: Green Mountain Audio - rio
Used with a 1st order crossover and BR cabinet in this rather pricey commercial design: Green Mountain Audio - rio
If you want sealed, look for a driver with an EBP (Fs/Qes) 50 - 80. Anything > 100 is suited to vented only.
The SS 18W8531 is probably the best choice but a SB17NRX may do the job even though I can't vouch for the mids and needs a lot of crossover work.
Either way, for low bass it would still need some help from a sub or a larger 0.5 woofer.
Don't dismiss vented but I know where you are coming from with the sealed thoughts.
The SS 18W8531 is probably the best choice but a SB17NRX may do the job even though I can't vouch for the mids and needs a lot of crossover work.
Either way, for low bass it would still need some help from a sub or a larger 0.5 woofer.
Don't dismiss vented but I know where you are coming from with the sealed thoughts.
I realise point of vented generally. But what I have understood is that vented enclosure has zero advantages against closed IF box and driver sizes are NOT restricted. That is also unrealistic somehow, liked absurd low tuning.
Summary...
Hi everyone,
thanks a lot for all your replies!
To some of your thoghts:
Jeromes idea of a true 3-way is certainly a nice one, but I just remembered that my listening room is just a bit too small for such a speaker. Another thing is that I really like to hear a huge soundstage coming from a small speaker, in germany we used to call it the "Aha!"-effect I guess that's why I'm ditching the idea of two 8" drivers also. Simply too big, unfortunately.
Davids version of a FAST is intoxicating for sure, especially the one with the 6,5" CSS woofer in a sealed enclosure. Problem is, I never heard those small fullrangers before. That means it would be a complete new area to discover. I know serveral 1" dome tweeters and I also tried a few 6,5" midwoofers in the past (Monacor SPH-176, Monacor SPH-165KEP, Audax HM170CO, Vifa P17WJ0008, Vifa PL18WO-09-08, Peeless 830874, Eton 760/37 HEX, Mivoc WPP180), so I have an idea of what to expect from such a simple 2-way design.
Originally, after a long term test session including all the midwoofers mentioned above, I decided that I liked the........ drum roll...... Vifa P17WJ best!
Others of the above drivers had better bass, some had better (clearer or more transparent) mids, but the P17 was the most enjoyable driver with the greatest versatility and the best all-round character. Good mids, good lows, just musical. Not the very best of all worlds, but highly enjoyable and forgiving enogh for most styles of different music (bad recordings included). Also, it was a driver very easy to work with regarding the x-over design.
I ended up selling all these drivers because I bought a completely different speaker at a good price second hand.
Nowadays, the P17 is discontinued (I know, Madisound offers them, but it would be quite expensive to ship a bunch of these over to germany) but I'm starting to think about this kind of speaker again. That's why I'm intersted in other 6,5" drivers I haven't tested myself, like the Seas CA-series.
The idea with the sealed design came up mainly because I listened to the low frequency range of a 10" Vifa driver in a sealed enclosure (the bass of a Martin Logan SL3) and I wanted to combine the ability to produce the nice clean mids and the huge but precise image of a good 6,5" driver with the strong, tight and absolutely not overblown bass of a sealed enclosure. All together in a small, inexpensive package!
Oh my, tough customer again...
But you guys, I think I might go for the P17 from Madisound because I already know this driver quite well and I like it. 2,5-way design, 20l BR for each driver (with a tad more stuffing than usual), a nice tweeter (Seas 27TDFC or Vifa HT 270 VF/6) and a VERY simple crossover design.
Or perhaps a very similar project, the Zaph Waveguide TMM with the 27TDFC and two CA18RNX (Zaph|Audio).
I like simple crossovers. I was never satisfied with higher order crossovers when it comes to the ability of drawing me into the music emotionally. Higher orders may lead to a more "correct" behaviour of the drivers responses, but to me the music itself never sounded "right" that way. Please note: This is a highly personal opinion!
That's why I'm not looking for a driver that produces a good low frequency range only. The midrange is still the most important part of the spectrum. At least that's what I think...
Hi everyone,
thanks a lot for all your replies!
To some of your thoghts:
Jeromes idea of a true 3-way is certainly a nice one, but I just remembered that my listening room is just a bit too small for such a speaker. Another thing is that I really like to hear a huge soundstage coming from a small speaker, in germany we used to call it the "Aha!"-effect
I guess that's why I'm ditching the idea of two 8" drivers also. Simply too big, unfortunately.Davids version of a FAST is intoxicating for sure, especially the one with the 6,5" CSS woofer in a sealed enclosure. Problem is, I never heard those small fullrangers before. That means it would be a complete new area to discover. I know serveral 1" dome tweeters and I also tried a few 6,5" midwoofers in the past (Monacor SPH-176, Monacor SPH-165KEP, Audax HM170CO, Vifa P17WJ0008, Vifa PL18WO-09-08, Peeless 830874, Eton 760/37 HEX, Mivoc WPP180), so I have an idea of what to expect from such a simple 2-way design.
Originally, after a long term test session including all the midwoofers mentioned above, I decided that I liked the........ drum roll...... Vifa P17WJ best!
Others of the above drivers had better bass, some had better (clearer or more transparent) mids, but the P17 was the most enjoyable driver with the greatest versatility and the best all-round character. Good mids, good lows, just musical. Not the very best of all worlds, but highly enjoyable and forgiving enogh for most styles of different music (bad recordings included). Also, it was a driver very easy to work with regarding the x-over design.
I ended up selling all these drivers because I bought a completely different speaker at a good price second hand.
Nowadays, the P17 is discontinued (I know, Madisound offers them, but it would be quite expensive to ship a bunch of these over to germany) but I'm starting to think about this kind of speaker again. That's why I'm intersted in other 6,5" drivers I haven't tested myself, like the Seas CA-series.
The idea with the sealed design came up mainly because I listened to the low frequency range of a 10" Vifa driver in a sealed enclosure (the bass of a Martin Logan SL3) and I wanted to combine the ability to produce the nice clean mids and the huge but precise image of a good 6,5" driver with the strong, tight and absolutely not overblown bass of a sealed enclosure. All together in a small, inexpensive package!
Oh my, tough customer again...
But you guys, I think I might go for the P17 from Madisound because I already know this driver quite well and I like it. 2,5-way design, 20l BR for each driver (with a tad more stuffing than usual), a nice tweeter (Seas 27TDFC or Vifa HT 270 VF/6) and a VERY simple crossover design.
Or perhaps a very similar project, the Zaph Waveguide TMM with the 27TDFC and two CA18RNX (Zaph|Audio).
I like simple crossovers. I was never satisfied with higher order crossovers when it comes to the ability of drawing me into the music emotionally. Higher orders may lead to a more "correct" behaviour of the drivers responses, but to me the music itself never sounded "right" that way. Please note: This is a highly personal opinion!
That's why I'm not looking for a driver that produces a good low frequency range only. The midrange is still the most important part of the spectrum. At least that's what I think...
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Here's some clearance drivers that are made for sealed enclosures. The price is certainly cheap enough to give them a try, not sure what the shipping to Germany would cost you though. I ordered a set of the 8" Jamo speakers similar to the 6.5" Jamo's. I played around with them, but I haven't mounted them in any thing permanent though. For $8 they seam to be good little speakers though.
JAMO 20414 6-1/2" Treated Paper Cone Woofer
Aura NS6-255-8A 6" Paper Cone Neodymium Magnet Woofer
Peerless India W6-KA638-SH 6.5" Paper Cone Shielded Woofer
JAMO 20414 6-1/2" Treated Paper Cone Woofer
Aura NS6-255-8A 6" Paper Cone Neodymium Magnet Woofer
Peerless India W6-KA638-SH 6.5" Paper Cone Shielded Woofer
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