Ultimate Solution for an User with already present "InWall" Subwoofer:ESL or dynamicL - diyAudio
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Old 10th August 2011, 07:05 PM   #1
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Default Ultimate Solution for an User with already present "InWall" Subwoofer:ESL or dynamicL

A friend of me have sold his mid-bass Beyma loudspeakers (for follow frequency range: 70-300Hz) and his full-range speaker system from AER with ORIS horn some years ago (to see at the attached picture).
Now he want an ultimative satellite speaker solution again, but now for ever.

My favorite solution is a "two-mode" diy satellite speaker system with follow components:

1) Supravox 215-2000 (both suited as midrange for two-way between 70-1500Hz and full range between 70-20.000Hz) in an alignment for a 70-80 Hz boom-box and additional high pass filtering
Here the URLs for short form data
215-2000 SUPRAVOX
so as example for a cabinet outline:
Alize Speakers Manufacturer & Wholesaler From France

2) Stage Accompany SA8535
go to post #55 about
Stage Accompany: the end or not?
and to post #1 about
AMT ESS-1 vs. Stage Accompany SA8535 (SA 8535)
for looking pictures of various versions. About this threads you will find a couple of additional informations arround this Stage Accompany model and the company itself.

The SA8535 can be use as di-pole version and mono- (single) pole and was available in various outlines.
More informations about the company you will get here:
SA Vintage
Rooster Ribbon - Home

My friend has an additional favorite solution: A ESL panel from Martin Logan or an other top-class brand, appropriate for frequencies down to 70-80 Hz.

Which solution would you prefer? What are the pros and cons for both solutions? A basic drawing from the audio room of the user you will find in the pdf attachement.

Which ESL-panel from the wide range of available versions of top-class manufacturer would you recommend (I haven't great experiences with ESL's, but I know, it is difficult to reach a clean and tight sound in the upper bass range) ?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg anlage nach Festinstallation II.JPG (728.8 KB, 484 views)
File Type: jpg Supravox 215-2000 front.jpg (16.5 KB, 455 views)
File Type: jpg Supravox 215-2000 rear.jpg (249.3 KB, 440 views)
File Type: jpg Supravox 215-2000 cabinet view-I.jpg (41.7 KB, 422 views)
File Type: jpg Supravox 215-2000 cabinet view-II.jpg (46.7 KB, 417 views)
File Type: jpg Supravox 215-2000 cabinet view-III.jpg (42.5 KB, 49 views)
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Waigel Wohnzimmer.pdf (7.7 KB, 32 views)

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 10th August 2011 at 07:22 PM.
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Old 14th August 2011, 12:56 PM   #2
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Default ESL Contraindicated

Large surface area ESLs, in the presence of a prodigious amount of LF energy coming out of the wall behind them, may not work so well when trying to reproduce the gossamer sounds of a triangle or that of a flute.
Regards,
WHG
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Old 14th August 2011, 02:41 PM   #3
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"your friend" has an inherent problem in putting the subs into the wall - they are always at the wrong "time" for whatever speaker is working with them! The subs need to be slightly in front of the main speakers to combine properly...

But disregarding that problem and solving it to some extent - one could consider putting the "other" speaker also into the wall as well... a bit depends on the construction of the wall, but the advantages are multiple, including much much closer to optimal frequency response in the lows and mids from whatever driver(s) are used...

In which case, either ESLs, ribbons, or dynamic drivers are worthy of consideration. Perhaps a single removable panel in that wall is the solution?. Then whatever speaker one wants to use can be "subbed" into that spot!

_-_-bear
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Old 15th August 2011, 10:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
"your friend" has an inherent problem in putting the subs into the wall - they are always at the wrong "time" for whatever speaker is working with them! The subs need to be slightly in front of the main speakers to combine properly... _-_-bear
I claim, this is one of the ultimatest solution - except the bass horn like that one about
ROYAL DEVICE by Roberto Delle Curti Hi-Efficiency Loudspeakers Audiophile speaker systems High fidelity systems Sistemi di altoparlanti hi-end HiFi ed Alta Efficienza Lautsprecher Diffusori acustici stereo Enceintes acoustiques
could be slightly better (I try to make a visit to Milano next year for my own soundcheck).

I have realized such projects several times by much other user's (any few examples you will find on my web-page).

In fact- the delay time relationsship between the subwoofer-system and the satellite loudspeaker is wrong. Through a very low crossover frequency (significantly below 100 Hz and 36db/oct) this too long delay time compared with the theoretically ideal value is absolutely inaudible (cause the large wave length at this frequency aera).

But what was actually the question here ?? Read therefore post #1 again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
But disregarding that problem and solving it to some extent - one could consider putting the "other" speaker also into the wall as well... a bit depends on the construction of the wall, but the advantages are multiple, including much much closer to optimal frequency response in the lows and mids from whatever driver(s) are used..._-_-bear
This is worth a consideration, because in recording studios this approach is mostly realized.
Interferences through reflections from the rear wall now lo longer present.
The internal distance between the separation of the back wall to the actually back wall are approximately 30 cm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
In which case, either ESLs, ribbons, or dynamic drivers are worthy of consideration. Perhaps a single removable panel in that wall is the solution?. Then whatever speaker one wants to use can be "subbed" into that spot! _-_-bear
This approach we will check.

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 15th August 2011 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 15th August 2011, 01:56 PM   #5
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I disagree, the time differential between the sub and the bass is quite audible.

You can choose to deem it inaudible, and/or decide it is not significant to one's enjoyment, but my personal experience says otherwise.

Otoh, there are more significant aspects of a system to get "right" before worrying too much about the delay between the sub bass and the bass...

The "Royal" horn is all well and good, but I would not want to live with the delay... imo, I have seen better horn based solutions, solving the delay issue...

_-_-bear
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Old 15th August 2011, 08:13 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
I disagree, the time differential between the sub and the bass is quite audible._-_-bear
Please let me know more details of that subbass-bass system, where you could hear this.
I suspect that many other unwanted effects was present in your case, and the reason for your observed audible discrepancy wasn't the wrong delay for the low-bass aera.
The from me most observed lack is the not present acoustical curvatures by checking the measuring results.
When I carried out such subwoofer systems, for the already present speakers I always design and realize a high pass filter (acoustical Linkwitz-Riley, fourth order, sometimes acoustical butterworth sixth order, still with respect to the appropriate arrangement for the back wall and side wall) similar like KEF in early days - go to
http://www.kef.com/Resources/KEFTopi...S_vol1no2A.pdf
The lowpass crossover frequency always will been determined by dividing frequency of the associated acoustical high pass function from the presently speakers.
Are you sure, that this was carried out also at your system in that way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
The "Royal" horn is all well and good, but I would not want to live with the delay... imo, I have seen better horn based solutions, solving the delay issue...
_-_-bear
Where ?

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 15th August 2011 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 16th August 2011, 01:45 PM   #7
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Where?

There are at least two different systems that I have seen the pix of on the web where the horn is actually a platform or stage built onto the floor, two bass horns, left right, with the mouth facing the front (listeners) and the HF part placed on the top of the platform at the same place that the bass drivers are located... a better solution, imo, IF you have the space and room size.

The way I align my speakers is by watching the impulse response using a FFT box in more or less real time and physically sliding each element WRT the other until the "best" impulse is obtained. The result is that the spatial aspect of something like a bass drum becomes more realistic and clear in terms of "space" and location. As does all the rest of the music played... the frequency and slope of the xovers is related but not the same thing... and yes, I am quite sure that as the sub bass moves farther away in time, it becomes quite audible, in the case of the ROYAL where the bass is many many feet behind I have little doubt that it is audible. Otoh, I have not hear it.

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Old 5th November 2011, 08:09 PM   #8
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Recent thread about localization of bass in the woofer forum.

After about 45 years of sticking my mixed-bass single-driver sub in all kinds of unpromising corners of many, many rooms in that time interval, I can say I just can't localize bass with 140 Hz crossover at 24dB/8ave to a clean sub. And when I've tried to trick audio-club guests into hearing bass from some box I (falsely) said was producing the bass, the usual Golden-Eared illusion was demonstrated.

If I am not mistaken, the responsibility to produce double-blind evidence that they CAN localize bass, as bear claims, rests on those who say they can.

I just read an AES study using highly sophisticated testing showed people could readily tell "same" versus "different" when the bass was placed outside the main speakers. However, they were exactly as detectable at wide angles as at narrow angles. That demonstrates that moving the bass around stimulates different sounds and has nothing to do with lateral detectability. BTW, that does mean moving the bass driver changes the sound - but it does not demonstrate that having the driver inside the main speaker box(es) is the "correct" sound.

Ben
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Last edited by bentoronto; 5th November 2011 at 08:13 PM.
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Old 5th November 2011, 10:07 PM   #9
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supplement to post #1: go to the attachements by post #15 about
New Approach for an Outline from a DIY Subwoofer - Precision Devices PD2150 inside
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Old 5th December 2011, 05:50 PM   #10
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Default Starting with Fostex FE206EN and SICA LP90 28 N92 (LP9028N92/Z009160)

Now we start with a cost effective solution:

1) Bass-mid driver, both appropriate for full range and bass-midrange:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/d...df/FE206En.pdf
(filtered vented boom-box alignment with 60-100 liters chamber - frequency response down to 70 Hz (-6db)

2) Tweeter
http://www.sica.it/images/sica/prodo...rs/z008985.pdf
http://www.sica.it/images/sica/prodo...rs/Z009160.pdf
dome tweeters
Tweeter ą dōme Sica LP90.28/N92TW (8 ohm)
Sica LP 90.28 / N92 (8Ohm)

Two modes will be realized:
1) two way
2) full range

BTW - the currently used loudspeaker is showed by the attachements from post #15 about
New Approach for an Outline from a DIY Subwoofer - Precision Devices PD2150 inside
and is follow model: "Master Class SP 1.1" from the German brand "SteinMusik ltd." go to
Stein Music Ltd. | 45468 Mülheim an der Ruhr | Germany | Lautsprecher | Master Class SP 1.1
http://www.image-hifi.com/images/sto..._hifi_6_10.pdf
av-magazin: Steinmusic präsentiert die neue Stateline-Serie und Neuheiten der Master Class-Serie
StereoTimes -- Commentary:

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 5th December 2011 at 06:12 PM.
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