"BEST" Woofer 50Hz - 300Hz & Hi eff, maybe 15" ?? - Page 14 - diyAudio
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Old 21st November 2011, 07:11 PM   #131
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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the ~53 gram mms Peavey SC-15 seems ok - -here's one stuffed into a very small K-coupler- in the original Karlson it would meet most of the criteria and do better than a reflex (imo) The ferrite version is called 1508-8-HE
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Old 22nd November 2011, 02:39 PM   #132
EBA is offline EBA  France
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Bear,

Of course one parameter doesn't the sound of the speaker.
When you have fs = 22 hz, ef = 100 db VAS = 750 L QTS = 0.25 BL = 19 T ...... A good emissive surface for exmeple 15 ".

But one parameter didn't mentionned.it's the FA factor ( Acceleration factor ) = BL/MMS . This parameter is the most important for the dynamics and the physical impact.
For exemple the FA of the 1601 or 1602 is very bad arround 170. Why because the MMS is important more than 100g.

The FA of the SUPRAVOX 400, ALTEC 416 or EMS B15EX is >300

It's very important for a good bass to have a very small MMS, for a 15" beteween 50 g and 60 g.
I prefer use one speaker of 15 " than two speaker of 12". Because the parameter of each speaker is variable at +- 10%. If you are at the maximum, you have 20% of difference.

Now, the speaker is important, but the cabinet and this material is also impotant to.

In the past i listenned to the ONKEN W with 416-A and OS 255 Es. i never headed a best sound, a best bass.

You use a sub and for me is a very bad solution. The sound of the sub isn't clear and you have effects on the bass.In past have used a sub, i decided to change and to build a ONKEN 360 cabinet.

The bass and sub bass are very lightness with more details and no coloration and no distortion. It's not possible to have this sond with a sub. Why ? becausse the FA of the sub are generaly very bad.

When you said, ALTEC isn't no good for you, for me it'snt possible because the ALTEX speaker used in a good condition have a very good sound.

Have used in the past, FOCAL audiom, 10 C01
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Old 22nd November 2011, 02:51 PM   #133
EBA is offline EBA  France
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Bear,

Have used in the past, FOCAL 10C01, AUDIOM 15, SIARE 31 TE, AUDAX, TAD 1602A....
For me, i choise the B15EX because i can to ajust the QTS and BL to each cabinet ONKEN 360 ( QTS arround 0.25 and BL arround 14.5 T).
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Old 22nd November 2011, 04:33 PM   #134
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“But one parameter didn't mentionned.it's the FA factor ( Acceleration factor ) = BL/MMS . This parameter is the most important for the dynamics and the physical impact.
For exemple the FA of the 1601 or 1602 is very bad arround 170. Why because the MMS is important more than 100g.”

If you are dealing with a woofer (acoustically small compared to the wavelength) and the object is flat response, then you already have an acceleration based device. It may be counter intuitive, but you can take a woofer driver, measure it’s rise time , “speed of attack” or high frequency response and then triple the moving mass by gluing a lead ring to the VC.

When you triple the moving mass, it has NO effect on the high frequency response or rise time. It does lower the efficiency, it does lower the LF resonance where acceleration behavior begins, but it has no effect on anything related to speed or attack. What you describe is correct for a horn driver which has a velocity response.

The confusion arises because a large heavy woofer will have a large motor which has more inductance and this lowers the high frequency corner where the inductive roll off begins. While it would seem logical that mass is the culprit (as many think in car terms), that is not how a woofer works and it is the corner caused by the Rdc and Le which makes large heavy drivers have a lower HF corner.

A problem too is what yardstick to use.
For example, if one were looking for a subwoofer, it is common to audition them by playing a kick drum. In this case, your ears will steer you towards the subwoofer that has a higher LF corner and or more harmonic distortion because both of these make the spectrum closer to what we know a drum sounds like.

Conversely, the engineering view says the subwoofer is part of a system and should do nothing more and nothing less than reproduce what comes out of the subwoofer crossover and that is an entirely different sound.

The subwoofer output isn’t supposed to sound like a kick drum even when producing a kick drum because it is supposed to be only the lowest components.
If you want gage technical accuracy, what we do at work is make generation loss recordings of loudspeakers. VERY FEW loudspeakers are even listenable after four generations, most bad after two, some after one.
Best,
Tom Danley
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Old 22nd November 2011, 05:24 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Danley View Post
<snipped>
If you want gage technical accuracy, what we do at work is make generation loss recordings of loudspeakers. VERY FEW loudspeakers are even listenable after four generations, most bad after two, some after one.
Best,
Tom Danley
Sorry, I did not understand at all what this last bit is saying??

I think you mean that you record the output of the speaker, then play it through, iterate a number of times until it becomes "mud"? Those with a greater number of passes through are adjudged to be superior??

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Old 22nd November 2011, 05:51 PM   #136
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Bear,

Have used in the past, FOCAL 10C01, AUDIOM 15, SIARE 31 TE, AUDAX, TAD 1602A....
For me, i choise the B15EX because i can to ajust the QTS and BL to each cabinet ONKEN 360 ( QTS arround 0.25 and BL arround 14.5 T).
EBA, imo the Audiom line is more or less an updated clone of the Altec...
I have heard the Altec line... they are ok... in fact I have some running right now... my problem with them probably stems from their somewhat extended HF response (don't need or want that... and imo using a xover in order to get "rid" of either peaks or extended response can be problematic... the reason being that the cone still gets excited to some extent by lower frequency energy and the result is in effect "distortion" - added energy), it would be best to have a woofer that is really intended to not try to be a high mid/low HF driver... that would be nice.

I have used the Audiom 15" some years ago in a design (it's on my website, but you can't see the driver). And it was actually very good. But not up to the sensitivity rating I would like to see.

I am not convinced that for this narrow range (>~70Hz --> <300Hz) of two octaves that a thin cone driver is desirable at all. Maybe it is.

Look, the usual application revolves around trying to squeeze the lowest F3 point possible. I do not want or need that. My Quadripole subs are not quite like the usual subs, when there is a pulse of LF (try Mickey Hart's Dafos, Gates of Dafos) the THUD pins you against your chair. No thud - no superfluous woofing going on.

They are not perfect, I designed them back in 1980... Today there are some other ways and techniques I'd incorporate, but I'm not trying to build a commercial sub, and these are in the "good enough" for me category, sitting on top of the wide range compression driver horns the sound is dominated by their effortless response...

Btw, I spoke to someone who was involved with the original recording and I said to them "it sounds like someone dropped a safe on the back of the stage... he said to me "they did." And he went on to explain what Mickey did. Ha ha!

So if you play it and it doesn't sound like REALLY someone is now dropping a SAFE, then ur not "getting all of it".

The goal for me is to fill in in a lovely way that range between the subs and the fabulous horn - the horn has outstanding "jump factor" (very uncompressed and alive, but very flat).

I guess the sound I am looking for could be described as articulate, clear, natural and unmechanical...

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Old 22nd November 2011, 07:41 PM   #137
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Hi bear
I should have explained a bit more. You have the idea, we use a tower and raise the speaker off the ground so that there are no close reflections. A precision measurement mic is placed at a meter or so on axis and fed to a 24/96 multi-track recorder.

Several sections of difficult music are chosen and played through the speaker. At the same time, one track records the mic signal and the other the music direct. As you suggest, the speaker recording is played back through the speaker and re-recorded.

Sometimes they also make a direct copy of the music too but even after 10 generations it is WAY better than most speakers are after one or two.
Microphones do not hear like your two ears and brain do, it only samples pressure from one location but if you make a recording with just one measurement mic, you will be amazed how real it sounds, it is just lacking the stereo image..

The generation loss recording of a loudspeaker produces no measurable data but does produce a very audible caricature of everything that is wrong with the speaker.
The basic idea (a generation loss test) is an ancient one, it was what one did to evaluate recording tape in the olden days.
I never heard of doing it with loudspeaker before but it made sense give the engineering goal and i found it useful for gauging the results of the Synergy horn design I was trying to refine at the time and compare it to what was available elsewhere. After all, the better it worked, the more like ideal and the more generations one could do.

While not the hifi market, here is a large scale speaker that was refined this way. like all of them, the idea was to have a single broad band point source as if a single broadband driver was driving a single horn. This was done with three cabinets (one facing the right and left sides and one forward) that array so that you are only in the pattern of one cabinet at any time.

Try this with headphones, remember this is a “tough room” to make nice sound in, in fact next year a system based on these will be installed.

Danley Sound Labs, Inc.'s Videos | Facebook

One of those cabinets at 700’
Danley Sound Labs Jericho Horn playing Jennifer Warnes track.MOV - YouTube

One thing I found developing this kind of speaker (much smaller ones haha) was that you can hear the self interference multiple sources produce when not coherently coupled. It is not a property in the frequency response etc but one your head /ears detect that a microphone does not.

Play a quiet voice through one speaker and close your eyes. It will be easy to tell what direction the speaker is with your eyes closed but it may or MAY NOT be easy to hear how far away the speaker is. With a speaker that radiates a simple portion of a sphere like an esl63 or SH-50 in th single voice test, it is easy to hear direction but the sound “sounds like” it is coming from somewhere well behind the grill. They do not radiate artifacts that allow your ears to identify he depth of the source, artifacts that are necessarily within difference between the sound arriving at your right and left ears.

On the SH-50, with the voice test, without a grill, even when your head is well inside the horn, like an esl-53, the voice still floats somewhere in front of you, there is no clue of “a source” or that there are three frequency ranges involved.

When the speakers do not radiate much of an identity, then when you go to stereo, the speakers do not shout out “hey here we are” allowing a much stronger recorded image to be revealed.
A speaker that radiates these clues, when faced with producing a mono phantom image, will instead produce three images or the feeling of sound coming from right, left and the image in the center. Eliminate those clues and close reflections and one can make a mono phantom as believable as a center speaker, more believable than a home theater center channel.
Best,
Tom Danley

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Old 22nd November 2011, 09:29 PM   #138
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Default Mms/Bl and mass on spring

Hi Tom,

My ears tell me low mass / high Bl bass drivers and bass / mid drivers with cloth / linen surrounds sound much better than high mass / low Bl drivers with heavy rubber surrounds.
I have massive respect for your knowledge and experience and I would be so gratefull if you could take 10 minutes to read my attachment and let me know your thoughts....

I totally get that low inductance extends the top end frequency response, high inductance reduces high end response of any driver.
I also get that copper sleeves on the pole piece reduces inductance and can extend the Xmax...But personally I believe in minimising cone travel...Not maximising it... see attached!
Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Cheers

Derek.

Bear,
I can highly recomend Precision Devices PD 158 and PD 1550 drivers.
I have used both in open baffle and sealed box designs mating with the Manger driver at 400Hz to 800Hz. The PD 158 is even better than the original ( circa 2005) Beyma 12LX60 which was my previous best all round driver for the 30Hz to 300Hz ish band.
The new Beyma 12 P80Nd is also fab, if money and space are no problem twin Beyma 12P80Nd drivers may well be the best yet....Unless you go twin PD 158 drivers...!
All the best

Derek.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 08:30 AM   #139
EBA is offline EBA  France
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Hi bear,

I understand what you want. A best eff with the best sound of bass ( no sub bass ) is possible with the better 12" or probaly 10", 8" of the market. For me, closed cabinet or OB ( two speakers ) with ALTEC 414-8C / EMSPEAKER B12 or B12 EX or B8 / TAD 12" is good way.
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Old 23rd November 2011, 08:47 AM   #140
EBA is offline EBA  France
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Hi Tom,

Sorry, i'm not according with you. Had you read " the speaker " and " les carnets de l'audiophile tome 2 " of Jean HIRIGA or please go to this web site :

It's the best web side of the ONKEN cabinets and speakers philo :

www.planet-inc.co.jp/onken-hp/tab-a1

Jean HIRAGA explane clearly what's " the trainage " in this books. It's evident if you have a speaker with small MMS, this speaker have a better sound. I verified that with differents 15 " in my ONKEN 360.

Best regards.

Eric BALLET
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