"BEST" Woofer 50Hz - 300Hz & Hi eff, maybe 15" ?? - Page 13 - diyAudio
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Old 18th November 2011, 01:26 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
Hmmm... still rainin' still dreamin'...

Altec does not "do it" for me, EBA if that is what you are suggesting... if you are suggesting field coil to "adjust the parameter of the speaker" I suppose there is some merit to field coil, but the main thought I have is not that but the sound, and for that there is no single parameter that translates exactly...

_-_-bear
Bear,

Was surprised to see this thread come back after a year in "hibernation".

No experience with field coil drivers other than they are super expensive.

Some personal observations from "back in the day", D-130s and D-140s are musical instrument speakers, they have lots of harmonic distortion, great for guitar amps, not great for Hi Fi, though lots were used back in the days when 100 watts was considered a fair amount of power.
For speakers of that vintage, the EV-15B, though also somewhat a musical instrument speaker, had a cleaner sound and similar sensitivity.

The Eminence Definimax 4015LF at 96 dB is a few dB shy of your goal, but has more LF than most of the "100 dB" sensitivity cones that fall off down low.
I built a drum monitor using the 4015LF, it delivers the punch needed for the application, and is quite clean to it's rated power. I'm using four 8" and two tweeters above it passively crossed at about 250 Hz.

It does have a peak around 900 Hz, but with a steep crossover that should be no problem in your <300 Hz application.

It has what I want in a speaker - excellent dynamics over a wide power range, low distortion, smooth response, and decent price.

It will work in a small box, a sealed 1.77 foot cube has an F3 of 72 Hz, a 3 cube box with a 45 Fb has an F3 of 48 Hz.

And it sounds good too :^).

Art Welter

Last edited by weltersys; 18th November 2011 at 01:30 AM.
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Old 18th November 2011, 03:52 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
Going back and looking at your subjective descriptions - I'm thinking it's possibly worse than this.

i.e. what you want isn't immediately available (to be auditioned), or rather would require a custom driver.

When I think about low "ringing". Polyglass-like smoothness. Excellent clarity. I automatically think AudioTechology. They have modestly efficient drivers, but none I'd call "efficient". They are however *custom*. If they would just ease-off of the mms (and allow a resulting higher fs), I'm sure they could be quite efficient (comparatively-speaking):
Flexunits 12 B 77 25 10
Flexunits 15 E 102 25 10
AT drivers strike what I feel is an almost perfect balance between every single factor except cost
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Old 18th November 2011, 05:40 AM   #123
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Hi Bear,

I have been on the hunt for the same thing but in a 12" woofer so I empathise with you. Scanspeak, Seas, JBL, B&C, Faital Pro and others have not done it for me and I'm running out of money

Once you have heard this range executed well it is hard to be happy with anything that can't pull it off regardless of how well everything else sounds.

The best woofer I have heard do this was a vintage celestion. The cone is very "dead" sounding when tapped but actually not very stiff. Made of paper I think but almost looked like a compressed fabric and was rough to the touch. I can only describe the sound as rich and textured yet very clear. Jazz double bass sounds very real and "live". I find double bass tell alot about a woofer and while some of the pro drivers sound great reproducing kick drums they have trouble making double bass sound real. I dont know if this is the key but your story of the well damped cotton fibre cone got me thinking - might be another piece to add to the puzzle.

Maybe the old celestion guitar speakers might be a good start? There are truck loads for sale second hand on ebay with good resale value if they dont work for you.
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Old 18th November 2011, 09:20 PM   #124
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Actually - did I say this before? - one of the nicest sounding speakers for this application in terms of tone was the Vieta, which I think did not last long, it had a white cotton fiber cone and a foam surround. Of course it had awful construction in several regards (terrible spider, among other things) and also rather low sensitivity. But the cone being that white cotton fiber is what was unique. Haven't seen anything like it before or since.

Btw, anything with a "peak" - out of band or not - is likely off the table. (unless it can be controlled and eliminated by the application of something mechanical to the cone...

Guitar speakers usually have cones intended to break up - I'm looking for clean, articulate and natural sounding. The type of thing when you hear it, you just say "aaaahhhh".

_-_-bear
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Old 18th November 2011, 09:36 PM   #125
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
I'm looking for clean, articulate and natural sounding. The type of thing when you hear it, you just say "aaaahhhh".

_-_-bear
Yup, AT drivers..

..and your wallet goes: OMG!
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Old 19th November 2011, 01:47 PM   #126
Scott L is offline Scott L  United States
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Default could you elaborate ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug20 View Post
Instead of the TD15 lambda series from AESpeakers.com. Maybe people should consider the AV15X instead.

It will definitely go down below 20Hz and still have good effeciencies because its a great subwoofer (One of the best 15" right now!!).

The other bonus is that these amazing drivers play well way up into the 500Hz range. Dual opposing AV15X will give you a great bass bin that will play from 30Hz to 600Hz!!
Doug, specifically, what do you mean by Dual opposing ?
Do you mean both firing at each other and then again in a common cavity ?
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Old 20th November 2011, 01:41 PM   #127
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Click the image to open in full size.

Electro-acoustic models

Seems as though you are going to need to go to multiple drivers.

Have you already decided how your drivers will be mounted? Would you dismiss the "W" baffle?
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Old 21st November 2011, 07:15 AM   #128
grec13 is offline grec13  United States
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Default celection woofer

Quote:
Originally Posted by dabbler View Post
Hi Bear,

I have which celestion woofer you like so much?

thank you
been on the hunt for the same thing but in a 12" woofer so I empathise with you. Scanspeak, Seas, JBL, B&C, Faital Pro and others have not done it for me and I'm running out of money

Once you have heard this range executed well it is hard to be happy with anything that can't pull it off regardless of how well everything else sounds.

The best woofer I have heard do this was a vintage celestion. The cone is very "dead" sounding when tapped but actually not very stiff. Made of paper I think but almost looked like a compressed fabric and was rough to the touch. I can only describe the sound as rich and textured yet very clear. Jazz double bass sounds very real and "live". I find double bass tell alot about a woofer and while some of the pro drivers sound great reproducing kick drums they have trouble making double bass sound real. I dont know if this is the key but your story of the well damped cotton fibre cone got me thinking - might be another piece to add to the puzzle.

Maybe the old celestion guitar speakers might be a good start? There are truck loads for sale second hand on ebay with good resale value if they dont work for you.
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Old 21st November 2011, 04:40 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear View Post
Opinions please:
Regardless of box size, flatness of response counts, tonal quality counts, high sensitivity counts.

The goal is to be VERY FLAT and 99db/1w/1m - but I'll take tone, fidelity and flat response with a lower sensitivity and use a more powerful amp, assuming the driver takes power...

Looking to fill between a sub system that actually covers from 65Hz down up to a horn that actually covers from 250Hz up - so the required passband is ~65Hz to ~300Hz. Don't worry about the xovers needed or the cabinet size or type! I'll handle that part. Mention it though.

Opinions and input appreciated.
In such cases a horn based approach is too large for most cases. My favorite approach here is a so called "BOOM-BOX" - one of the BB4/SBB4 (super-) boom-box alignment. The SPL aera arround the tuning frequency is enhanced very strongly - thus an appropriate passive high pass network is necessary (two resistors, one cap and one inductor for an acoustical slope of 36db/oct).
By a tuning freqency arround 60-90Hz the vented aera has an larger surface than the diaphragm of the transducer, if the chamber volume is above 70 liters by one transducer and 140 liters by the use of two transducers with diameter between 30 and 38 cm ('12-'15).
This ensures very low distortion by the sonic radiation of the vented port.
By vented port surface lower than 75% of the cone aera avoid vented boxes (in all cases, where only a low chamber volume is possible).
Very important is also the use of drivers with very low mechanical losses inside of surround and spider.
There are very few rubber surround devices in real "low-loss" version by low influence through present ambient temperature at the same time. Thus a cloth material is to prefer.
Some years ago I prefer Fostex 12W360 - now US-Magnetics - go to
12W360-8 US-magnetics 12" Woofer - BELL AUDIO STORE
There are additional other good quality chassis available like FANE Colossus series, Precision Devices, '18-sound (eighteen-sound) and McCauley.
The attached example (sandwich box, 100db/1W/1m, 80-500Hz, equipped with Fostex 12W360, approximately 100 kg) has a tuning frequency arround 70 Hz and an internal chamber volume of 80 liters.
The associated subwoofer you will find by post #12 (image 2) about
The Biggest SUBWOOFER of the WORLD (in Milano) - full power down to 10Hz - Galerie
If you want a deeper lower cut-off frequency without reduction of the chamber volume, TAD, JBL or TC-Sound (transducers with lower resonance frequency) is a good choice - but you don't get the same tight and clean sound in this critical acoustical range of the upper bass aera.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Fostex12W360+Supravox135LB R front.jpg (98.4 KB, 278 views)

Last edited by tiefbassuebertr; 21st November 2011 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 21st November 2011, 05:19 PM   #130
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P.S. - supplement to my last post #129:
here an URL from Japan with the Fostex 12W360:
ƒE[ƒn[ŠJŽn@ŽR…‚‚r‚o‚T‚O‚Tƒ{ƒbƒNƒX‚Ɂ@ƒtƒHƒXƒeƒNƒX ‚‚o‚`—pƒE[ƒn[@12W360‚“‚‚‚‚
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