Yup, don't do it................
Now you may be able to run 4 edge to edge, but I'd prefer 3.
Actually, If you have a 10 band equalizer, you may be able to eq the highs back in, not the best but here are some similar projects and their results using much better drivers.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/Kuze3201/Kuze3201.html
http://www.ids25.com/
Look closely at the pre and post eq graphs of the kuze array.........
Very hashy and weird in the high end.
remember, those 3"x5" drivers probably have horrible frequency response.............. horrible............ A bunch of junky drivers don't sound like an awesome driver, but a bunch of good drivers can sound like a very good driver.
Norman
Now you may be able to run 4 edge to edge, but I'd prefer 3.
Actually, If you have a 10 band equalizer, you may be able to eq the highs back in, not the best but here are some similar projects and their results using much better drivers.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/Kuze3201/Kuze3201.html
http://www.ids25.com/
Look closely at the pre and post eq graphs of the kuze array.........
Very hashy and weird in the high end.
remember, those 3"x5" drivers probably have horrible frequency response.............. horrible............ A bunch of junky drivers don't sound like an awesome driver, but a bunch of good drivers can sound like a very good driver.
Norman
Maybe worth buying one at least to see if they sound any good.
you could stack them so that there is only 3inches between each driver. A focused (curved) array would be interesting. There are many advantages (power handling dynamic range) to using multiple drivers and many disadvantages (comb filtering size).
have you seen this:
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Kuze3201
check the frequency response
have you thought of putting a tweeter in the middle with a ring of drivers around?
Regards Philip
hey norman we were thinking the same thing at the same time.... synchronicity!
you could stack them so that there is only 3inches between each driver. A focused (curved) array would be interesting. There are many advantages (power handling dynamic range) to using multiple drivers and many disadvantages (comb filtering size).
have you seen this:
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/indexn.cfm?project=Kuze3201
check the frequency response
have you thought of putting a tweeter in the middle with a ring of drivers around?
Regards Philip
hey norman we were thinking the same thing at the same time.... synchronicity!
It probably would be a good idea to listen to one or a pair of those drivers before committing to a major purchase. That oval shape can actually achieve better sound than round drivers, everything else being equal.
One real benefit of an array is that there are good sounding drivers out there that may not or don't have real high power handling. As the duties are divided up between all the drivers, it's possible to get excellent power handling and SPL's with each individual driver able to work within it's limitations and remain absolutely linear.
Expensive drivers, BTW, don't necessarily sound better although you can expect better tolerances, and increased power handling. For an array, this is often overkill, being not only more expensive but rendering little, if any, additional benefits.
At the price, assuming that they sound ok to start with, you can go whole hog on a "Budget High-End" speaker system.
A few suggestions:
1. Use either 4, 8, 16, or 32 drivers per side (how high is your ceiling?) as it makes it easier to wire for a nominal 4 or 8 ohms. If you intend on a conventional (flat baffle) array it really is better to have your array go from the floor to the ceiling to insure a truly cylindrical wave front, as anything short of that (power tapering, etc.) actually compromises the design and the physics involved in this are to be trusted.
2. If you use these drivers, stack them fairly tight with them laying horizontally as the CTC distance between drivers will be better and the frequency of the onset of comb filtering will be
quite a bit higher.
3. If you usually listen alone, or with just you and a friend or your wife, I would suggest seriously considering a focused array as was suggested above. A very elegant, yet simple solution.
5. If those drivers actually go to 16 kHz, and your hearing is average (depending on age) you may not need tweeters at all. I'm sure that the drivers have *some* output above that 16k and not having to use tweeters simplifies matters considerably.
Good luck on your project and remember that this supposed to be fun, so don't allow yourself to get *too* serious about this.
Best Regards,
TerryO
One real benefit of an array is that there are good sounding drivers out there that may not or don't have real high power handling. As the duties are divided up between all the drivers, it's possible to get excellent power handling and SPL's with each individual driver able to work within it's limitations and remain absolutely linear.
Expensive drivers, BTW, don't necessarily sound better although you can expect better tolerances, and increased power handling. For an array, this is often overkill, being not only more expensive but rendering little, if any, additional benefits.
At the price, assuming that they sound ok to start with, you can go whole hog on a "Budget High-End" speaker system.
A few suggestions:
1. Use either 4, 8, 16, or 32 drivers per side (how high is your ceiling?) as it makes it easier to wire for a nominal 4 or 8 ohms. If you intend on a conventional (flat baffle) array it really is better to have your array go from the floor to the ceiling to insure a truly cylindrical wave front, as anything short of that (power tapering, etc.) actually compromises the design and the physics involved in this are to be trusted.
2. If you use these drivers, stack them fairly tight with them laying horizontally as the CTC distance between drivers will be better and the frequency of the onset of comb filtering will be
quite a bit higher.
3. If you usually listen alone, or with just you and a friend or your wife, I would suggest seriously considering a focused array as was suggested above. A very elegant, yet simple solution.
5. If those drivers actually go to 16 kHz, and your hearing is average (depending on age) you may not need tweeters at all. I'm sure that the drivers have *some* output above that 16k and not having to use tweeters simplifies matters considerably.
Good luck on your project and remember that this supposed to be fun, so don't allow yourself to get *too* serious about this.
Best Regards,
TerryO
Terrry,
Can you post links to your speakers ?
The old links to post #12 don't seem to work aymore.
You used 1/2" mdf ? Looks like 2 pieces for the front baffle.
What is the focus point, 8' ? 10' ?
How long ? How much bow ? Any baffle step ?
I think I just ordered 38 two inch drivers.................
lol.....................
their sealed f3 is near 185hz............ perfect for me.
The Tang Band w2-803sm has f3 sealed qtc .707 of 282hz.
The Tang Band w2-800sl had a good review in Japan but the qts of .23 make for a seled qtc .707 f3 of 492hz...............
Norman
Can you post links to your speakers ?
The old links to post #12 don't seem to work aymore.
You used 1/2" mdf ? Looks like 2 pieces for the front baffle.
What is the focus point, 8' ? 10' ?
How long ? How much bow ? Any baffle step ?
I think I just ordered 38 two inch drivers.................
lol.....................
their sealed f3 is near 185hz............ perfect for me.
The Tang Band w2-803sm has f3 sealed qtc .707 of 282hz.
The Tang Band w2-800sl had a good review in Japan but the qts of .23 make for a seled qtc .707 f3 of 492hz...............
Norman
norman bates said:
Norrrrman,
Here's a site provided by friend Chad Kirby:
http://speakers.sub-optimal.net/thumbnails.php?album=16
All the sides are one piece of MDF. You're memory is correct, they are 1/2 inch.
I actually used a 10.5 foot radius for the curvature. In my house I sit approximately 8 feet back from the plane of the speakers. This gives about 7-8 inches for my ears within the "Cone of Sound."
Those cabinets are about 37 inches tall. Bow? As above, it's an arc with about a 10.5 foot radius. No baffle step or any filter.
I like to stay below 300-350 if possible, in order to cross over to a bass module as low as possible, to stay clear of Bell Labs "vocal range."
Best Regards,
TerryO
Ah, thanks.....................
the uplake link works well...
Thanks for the answers, I remember you recommending placing the focus behind you. With my dual 4" (5" frame) I'm still experimenting with pennies under the front to get the ears exactly between the 2 drivers at 12'. When I hunched a little, it sounded better, so I started adding pennies. The highest detail started coming in...................
So for a 12' listening distance aim for 14' or so, got it.
I think I asked this before, there is not an impresion of a " tall " sound right ?
I've had mucho luck with the same f3 sealed in the same width box using the loudness button alongside of an 80hz f-mod woofers. Adds a nice hump down low, the way I like it.
the uplake link works well...
Thanks for the answers, I remember you recommending placing the focus behind you. With my dual 4" (5" frame) I'm still experimenting with pennies under the front to get the ears exactly between the 2 drivers at 12'. When I hunched a little, it sounded better, so I started adding pennies. The highest detail started coming in...................
So for a 12' listening distance aim for 14' or so, got it.
I think I asked this before, there is not an impresion of a " tall " sound right ?
I've had mucho luck with the same f3 sealed in the same width box using the loudness button alongside of an 80hz f-mod woofers. Adds a nice hump down low, the way I like it.
norman bates said:
Norman,
I've got to go into town, so this will be quick.
Tall Sound?
No, it's not, but you *do* have a papable density of tone color with the ability to hear into the music, along with a profound feeling of limitless scale that I've seldom experienced by anything other than high quality horns.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I love dynamics of horns but their echos throw me into fits.
Echos can be good for a pa, but not playback in a house.
The only ones I've liked were the yamaha round club series but wanted to try the 400hz (really 600hz) ones by stereo lab............ but I've never closely tested the yamahas, just a brief listen in a huge room.
But adding an electronic crossover removes transparancy but gains massive output. I need awesome sound at 70-80db.
Multiple drivers = less distortion = cleaner more detail.
My buddy ordered a few of the peerless 830983 from partsexpress for me.
I have plans for a 9 focused array having f3 near 185hz.
Only 2' tall.
Norman
Echos can be good for a pa, but not playback in a house.
The only ones I've liked were the yamaha round club series but wanted to try the 400hz (really 600hz) ones by stereo lab............ but I've never closely tested the yamahas, just a brief listen in a huge room.
But adding an electronic crossover removes transparancy but gains massive output. I need awesome sound at 70-80db.
Multiple drivers = less distortion = cleaner more detail.
My buddy ordered a few of the peerless 830983 from partsexpress for me.
I have plans for a 9 focused array having f3 near 185hz.
Only 2' tall.
Norman
interesting drivers
i wonder if they really play up to 16khz with 0.75 mH inductance
has someone tested them?
Kuzma's results look strange, maybe he's getting that response due to tall pipe enclosure? looks like he could use single capacitor to flatten FR. sensitivity would be lower, but these are not extreme SPL speakers anyway.
i wonder if they really play up to 16khz with 0.75 mH inductance
has someone tested them?
Kuzma's results look strange, maybe he's getting that response due to tall pipe enclosure? looks like he could use single capacitor to flatten FR. sensitivity would be lower, but these are not extreme SPL speakers anyway.
yup, that is a slick setup.
Remember that the nsb has a bad peak near 8khz then not much above that.
"I mounted four 269-469, 2x2, on a baffle and liked the sound a lot, except this configuration in Voight pipes produced poor image. Lobbing - interference between drivers - is the reason. This is where line arrays help. Instead of mounting 4 speakers 2X2, I mounted them in a vertical array. The sound was fuller, imaging was still very sharp. I added 2 more drivers nd confirmed what I have already heard with 4-element array: high-frequency roll-off. Interference, again, was causing this. The drivers in the middle appear close to the listener than the top most and the bottom most drivers by more than an inch, which is enough to cancel out high-frequency waves........... After I curved the front baffles of Voight pipes, each having 6 269-469 drivers, everything started sounding very nice....... Knowing that open boxes are very neutral, one day I removed the back sides of my pipes...... A change to better was very apparent...... "
Norman
Remember that the nsb has a bad peak near 8khz then not much above that.
"I mounted four 269-469, 2x2, on a baffle and liked the sound a lot, except this configuration in Voight pipes produced poor image. Lobbing - interference between drivers - is the reason. This is where line arrays help. Instead of mounting 4 speakers 2X2, I mounted them in a vertical array. The sound was fuller, imaging was still very sharp. I added 2 more drivers nd confirmed what I have already heard with 4-element array: high-frequency roll-off. Interference, again, was causing this. The drivers in the middle appear close to the listener than the top most and the bottom most drivers by more than an inch, which is enough to cancel out high-frequency waves........... After I curved the front baffles of Voight pipes, each having 6 269-469 drivers, everything started sounding very nice....... Knowing that open boxes are very neutral, one day I removed the back sides of my pipes...... A change to better was very apparent...... "
Norman
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/34579/572305.html
I claim no expertise in this matter. I googled comb filtering as I'm just learning, and this is one of the links that came up.
Discussion?
Brad
gracey said:
Brad,
Here's a quote from the above website:
These later-arriving signals that show up with steady-state pink noise (within the 30-millisecond window) do not disrupt the brain's precise localization mechanism. What occurs is that you do not "hear" the contributions of the later-arriving sounds from the adjacent drivers that are responsible for the measurement artifact of comb filtering. Or rather, your brain hears and processes them but disregards them lest they confuse our directional acuity; in fact all they do in the listener is create a sense of added spaciousness.
If this is true then unbelievable "spaciousness" is available to the builder by the simple expedient of just wiring the drivers out of phase.
To me the problem is very real, especially in line arrays that utilize multiple drivers that produce the same frequency range. The Venetian Blind effect is at frequencies that exceed the "beaming onset frequency" and become increasingly troublesome, as the frequencies that the driver in question is required to deliver, goes higher.
Best Regards,
TerryO
a couple of differing opinions:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
http://sound.westhost.com/ptd.htm
a guess the best thing to do is to try it for yourself and see if it matters to YOU...
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
http://sound.westhost.com/ptd.htm
a guess the best thing to do is to try it for yourself and see if it matters to YOU...
I cannot tolerate the sound of a 6' tall guitar.
I'm a full range driver guy now, but enjoy time aligned setups when I need more volume, but I have to tolerate the grunge added by an active crossover.
Some flaws drive one person to fits while others don't hear them.
Maybe we are crazy, but it's my perception and I'm sticking to it.
Mood also affects sound quality.
There are many variables to deal with.
And many roads for an individual to try to get to their happy place.
What was once a favorite setup can be junk to you now, you've moved on and your priorities have changed.
Norman
I'm a full range driver guy now, but enjoy time aligned setups when I need more volume, but I have to tolerate the grunge added by an active crossover.
Some flaws drive one person to fits while others don't hear them.
Maybe we are crazy, but it's my perception and I'm sticking to it.
Mood also affects sound quality.
There are many variables to deal with.
And many roads for an individual to try to get to their happy place.
What was once a favorite setup can be junk to you now, you've moved on and your priorities have changed.
Norman
i built a very similar line array with a very similar driver i found on ebay
but never finished the mate just used one it was very nice sounding just needed a tweeter and it was awesome sounding but i dont have the time or room to use it so it sits on a shelf waiting for me to get back to it
but never finished the mate just used one it was very nice sounding just needed a tweeter and it was awesome sounding but i dont have the time or room to use it so it sits on a shelf waiting for me to get back to it
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.